Abel Garcia Plaza:

I'll reject this game..... And an English narrator means nothing for an Spanish speaker (by the way, without subtitles, most of the Spanish people won't understand the story).

Interesting... are you saying that having audio only speech makes the game unplayable in Spain? Do people think this also applies in France and Italy? Anyone off hand know the levels of English speakers in those countries? Reading is different to listening is what I am hearing here.

I have not played this game yet - is the naration essential to play the game? If not what about it made the game unplayable?

Lots of stuff to think about when you ship to other countries.


Finally out of interest how many Spanish, French and Italian speakers do we have as reviewers? Remember i you localise your game it has to be passed by reviewers who speak all the languages so if we don't have (m)any it could delay the reviews quite a lot.

The countries a game is distributed to are not the same as the languages it is localised in. In the case of Bad Atom Episode 1 it is only in English from what I can see, so it is wrong to reject it for lack of Spanish.


If it had been declared as localised in Spanish, but was not in fact playable for someone who only knows Spanish, then that would be grounds for a person reviewing it in Spanish to reject. If the localisation was merely incomplete (e.g. some VO in the original language, but all important VO was translated by subtitles) then that is perfectly normal and acceptable for even commercial games (some people even prefer that), so I wouldn't think it's sensible to reject for that.

You missed the point, the rejection is not for general lack of Spanish. If a game RELIES on the user understanding the Audio then it seems reasonalbe to reject for unplayable. If an Audio cue says "fetch me the cat" and I don't speak English then I cannot play your game

Abel seems to be saying that written English is more widely understood than spoken English in Spain (possibly France and Italy)

The ZMan:

You missed the point, the rejection is not for general lack of Spanish. If a game RELIES on the user understanding the Audio then it seems reasonalbe to reject for unplayable.

Not if it's not declared as being localised in Spanish...

It's only declared as localised in English. Is the audio understandable to someone who knows English? Whether it's understandable to someone who doesn't is irrelevant.

[edit: by "knows" I should really say "is fluent in". A game shouldn't need to take into account some people having limited aural comprehension or literacy]

Ah yes, I was not taking that into account... good point...

Though interestingly enough looking at the community games screens on the xbox See Being here  http://thirdpartyninjas.com/blog/2008/11/07/being-on-community-games/ there is no indication to an end user who is buying it that the game is English only. You need to look at the developer screens for that.

The post you are referring to has been edited and now offers a different reason for rejection, although I did see the original.

I just hope Pigyman got better feedback on the Peer Review form then he did from the amended forum post because it doesn't give much in the way of feedback (in terms of the crashes found).

I wasn't so much worried about the reason for rejection as having a discussion about language issues.

My take - if the reviewer is reviewing a game that hasn't been localized then he shouldn't be rejecting it for not being able to understand it. That's his fault, not the game's. If a localized version relies on audio that isn't in the localized language and that audio affects gameplay, then yes it should be rejected.

Jim Perry:

My take - if the reviewer is reviewing a game that hasn't been localized then he shouldn't be rejecting it for not being able to understand it. That's his fault, not the game's. If a localized version relies on audio that isn't in the localized language and that audio affects gameplay, then yes it should be rejected.

I agree 100%.

So should we be indicating the languages in ou descriptions since the dashboard appears not to show them.

The ZMan:

So should we be indicating the languages in ou descriptions since the dashboard appears not to show them.

I think (based on the Gamasutra article about submitting a game) that you enter different descriptions for different languges (with one selected as the default), so the languages that the descriptions have been localised to ought to reflect whatever languages the game has been localised to. I suppose you could provide a description for a language the game hasn't been localised to, but put a note in that that the game itself isn't localised to that language.

Yes that is correct. So the indications to the end user is a localised description... seems cool enough.

So to sum up this thread:

The community feels that:

• No review exceptions between audio and written language.
• If a game is not localised to a language then speakers of that language should not use the inability to understand as failure.
• Descriptions are the indicator to the end users of a language. If they see an English description then they should expect to be able to understand English in the game.
• As a creator you should remember, though its not a failure point, that many non English speakers can read English better thatn they can listen to it. So adding subtitles to audio could help you sell your game in those countries.

[Remember reviews are personal things, nobody has to follow these rules if they dont have to. I just figured it was good to have a summary of the debate]

Well, it seems that my post was the source for this discussion, so I'll clarify what I said/did regarding my "Bad Atom" review and, more important, WHY.

But, first of all, I want to quote the exact text I wrote, which can be found very easily:

Abel Garcia Plaza:

I'll reject this game. The subtitles are two small for me to be read without problems (I tested the last version, which was supposed to correct that). And an English narrator means nothing for an Spanish speaker (by the way, without subtitles, most of the Spanish people won't understand the story).

On the contrary of what has been said:

PADAP:

The post you are referring to has been edited and now offers a different reason for rejection, although I did see the original.

I never edited my post. Never. I have no reason to do so because I did nothing I have to hide. My criteria could be wrong, and I apologize if it was, but I just wanted, and want, to help Community Games to be a service to be taken into account by Spanish users.

PADAP:

I just hope Pigyman got better feedback on the Peer Review form then he did from the amended forum post because it doesn't give much in the way of feedback (in terms of the crashes found).

There was no crash, just small subtitles. And I think it's perfectly clear in my post. Maybe it wasn't a good reason (as far as I understand from this thread) to reject it, but I think I wrote the reason clearly.

I think The ZMan understood my post as it was intended to:

The ZMan:

are you saying that having audio only speech makes the game unplayable in Spain?

Yes, if the audio contains instructions which are important enough, like how to play the game. The case we are talking about hadn't got, FOR ME, a reasonable text size. It was difficult for me to read it.

The ZMan:

Anyone off hand know the levels of English speakers in those countries?

Beleive it or not, but in Spain the average user neither has a good level of English, in general, nor of listening in particular.

The ZMan:

Abel seems to be saying that written English is more widely understood than spoken English in Spain

Due to the way we are teached, we have a not-so-bad level of grammar and I consider the average Spanish able to understand English texts which neither are too long nor use complex words. For that reason, I consider games like Lines, Block, DUOtris+, etc. being playable for an average Spanish gamer. I think they should be well sold in Spain, regardless the localization issue, if they can be discovered by the users (and that's a Microsoft problem, not an user's one). The average Spanish reads better than he/she writes, writes better than he/she listens and listens better than he/she speaks. Commonly, he/she barely writes (well) complex texts. Imagine the rest.

Opprobrious:

If it had been declared as localised in Spanish, but was not in fact playable for someone who only knows Spanish, then that would be grounds for a person reviewing it in Spanish to reject.

Nick Gravelyn:

Jim Perry:

My take - if the reviewer is reviewing a game that hasn't been localized then he shouldn't be rejecting it for not being able to understand it. That's his fault, not the game's. If a localized version relies on audio that isn't in the localized language and that audio affects gameplay, then yes it should be rejected.

I agree 100%.

I consider my level of English enough to be an English speaker reviewer (it isn't perfect, but enough, both reading and listening). That wasn't the problem. I was reviewing the game from the point of view of an average Spanish, as I read the game was going to be sold in Spain. As said before, I apologize if I was wrong and I won't do the same again. I just want to help you guys sell your games in Spain and, beleive me, games like "Bad Atom" will have serious problems if they don't use well-sized subtitles, if possible, in the whole game, if not, at least in the most important parts of it. And, depending on the game genre, the story could be important enough to buy a game. But, remember I didn't reject the game for that reason, just for the small (for me) size of the texts. The texts size is becoming a very big problem even in commercial games, such as Dead Rising or Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts, and they're in Spanish. Can you imagine if they were in English? Ok, don't imagine because that's the case of "Bad Atom" game. I just wanted to prevent the author and, of course, I rejected the game as unplayable for Spanish people (not for me), because of the text size.

Opprobrious:

If the localisation was merely incomplete (e.g. some VO in the original language, but all important VO was translated by subtitles) then that is perfectly normal and acceptable for even commercial games (some people even prefer that), so I wouldn't think it's sensible to reject for that.

Let me laugh at that. In Spain, ALL titles (at least, all I know) have, at least, subtitles in Spanish. They could keep the English voices (such as GTA IV) but, at least they have the subtitles IN SPANISH. That's something people accepts, not without complaining about it, but they don't like games with either incomplete or bad translations. Just if your game is good/known enough, it is sold without problems. For example, Ovblivion had a really bad Spanish translation in some cases but people bought it because, despite of that, the game was really good.

You can see this from other point of view. In Spain, XBLCG not only will have the leaderboard/achievements disadvantage compared to the XBLA ones, but also they are going to be just in English, while ALL XBLA games are in Spanish. You should consider the localization issue more important than you're considering it now. Beleive me. I'm preventing you guys since I was new to this, even I'm offering my help to translate your games, but no one seems to take me seriously. Spain is not Germany, is not Sweeden, is not Netherlands, is not... is just Spain, and we are not that good with English compared to our neigbours. I'm sorry about that, but it's the reality.

SiW:

If the game relies on audio that can't be heard by the player and that audio affects gameplay, then yes it should be rejected.

I agree with you, but I think this is more complex than a common translation, as you need to add all the relevant sounds in your subtitles. That said, I think any subtitled game is 90-95% playable by deaf people.

Abel Garcia Plaza:

Opprobrious:

If the localisation was merely incomplete (e.g. some VO in the original language, but all important VO was translated by subtitles) then that is perfectly normal and acceptable for even commercial games (some people even prefer that), so I wouldn't think it's sensible to reject for that.

Let me laugh at that. In Spain, ALL titles (at least, all I know) have, at least, subtitles in Spanish. They could keep the English voices (such as GTA IV) but, at least they have the subtitles IN SPANISH. That's something people accepts, not without complaining about it, but they don't like games with either incomplete or bad translations. Just if your game is good/known enough, it is sold without problems. For example, Ovblivion had a really bad Spanish translation in some cases but people bought it because, despite of that, the game was really good.

You're not understanding my point. I'm talking about leaving some VO untranslated, which is something I see quite often in the Japanese games I play. Many of them have incidental Japanese VO left without subtitles or translation of any kind. So the localisation is incomplete, but that's fine as there's no need to understand what exactly is said.


Anyway, if a game has declared itself as only being in English, then you should not be reviewing it on whether it's playable for people not fluent in English. I wouldn't want a game excluded from sale in the UK just because I thought it wasn't playable for anyone only fluent in English.

Opprobrious:

You're not understanding my point. I'm talking about leaving some VO untranslated, which is something I see quite often in the Japanese games I play. Many of them have incidental Japanese VO left without subtitles or translation of any kind. So the localisation is incomplete, but that's fine as there's no need to understand what exactly is said.

Ok. Now I understand your point. In that case, I agree with you. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Opprobrious:

Anyway, if a game has declared itself as only being in English, then you should not be reviewing it on whether it's playable for people not fluent in English. I wouldn't want a game excluded from sale in the UK just because I thought it wasn't playable for anyone only fluent in English.

I already understood that when I read this thread ;-) I won't do that again.

By the way, I posted a new thread about the non-English-speaking reviewers. I hope it will be useful.

Abel Garcia Plaza:

I never edited my post. Never. I have no reason to do so because I did nothing I have to hide. My criteria could be wrong, and I apologize if it was, but I just wanted, and want, to help Community Games to be a service to be taken into account by Spanish users.

Erk. I mistakenly confused two feedback posts you made at the same time. Please accept my sincere apologies.

I appreciate your cause.  However, as it stands, my game has still not been accepted through the review process possibly due to error.  My game was never meant to be localized in Spanish and yet you claimed you would reject it because Spanish speakers would not be able to understand the audio or subtitles.

First of all I'm kind of upset that I can't see who failed/passed my game and why in a rundown of reviews.  Perhaps this is where the "My Business" page will come in handy later?  Instead, I have to sit here and wonder who else is reviewing and rejecting my game for whatever reasons they choose while possibly being misinformed of the process that is involved.  Now Bad Atom is at the bottom of a growing list of newer titles.  All this and the game was fully passed before I took it down to tweak some outstanding issues based on suggestions from the first run of the review process.  I fixed issues and now I'm getting more rejections then before.

I'm not saying you are to blame, Abel.  I'm just relaying my story to folks so that we can all understand this process a bit better and get it right so that people don't have to go through these things.

If anyone out there hasn't played Bad Atom Episode 1 yet, please help me out and give it a shot and a review.  I would greatly appreciate it and review any of your games whether you pass or fail my game.  If my game deserves to fail then I can live with that but I don't think anyone that has played the current release reported a crash or an instance of unplayability under normal circumstances.

Thanks

The ZMan, you said the games do not appear to show which languages are officially supported on the NXE. What happens to the CG menu if you change your console settings to Spanish? Do the games still appear? If not, then it is reasonable to assume that every CG game should be bugged if, at any point in the game, it is impossible to proceed or understand your objectives because of a lack of clarity or a lack of localized information for every Language the game is marked as supporting when submitted. But that would bring up another point. If a game simply does not give enough information to proceed in any language (for example, no directions), would that be grounds for rejection?

Language and distribution are 2 different questions.

You can distribute in all 5 countries in one language or you can translate. If a game is distributed to all 5 then your language settings dont have any effect other than to tell the game which language to display.

But the question is, do games that don't support your language show up in the marketplace?

kstrat2001:

My game was never meant to be localized in Spanish and yet you claimed you would reject it because Spanish speakers would not be able to understand the audio or subtitles.

I claimed that just for the audio. They can understand the subtitles, if they are big enough to be read. Anyway, I made a mistake, and I apologize for that. I think the review rules aren't that clear and the result of forums like this one should be shown in somewhere, instead of just in the forums.

kstrat2001:

I would greatly appreciate it and review any of your games whether you pass or fail my game.

Sorry, but I'm not good enough to play your game decently with the current controls. I can't advance too much (is very complex for me to destroy the enemies) and, therefore, I can't see if it is stable or not, so I won't review it. But your game is in English, so many people should be able to review it. I'm planning to launch a simple puzzle game in several languages, and, saw how this works, I'm worried a lot about it's future review process. You can consider yourself kind of lucky, beleive me. The real problem here is reserved for multilanguage games...

Louis Ingenthron:

But the question is, do games that don't support your language show up in the marketplace?

Yes, if they're published in your region.

Abel Garcia Plaza:

Sorry, but I'm not good enough to play your game decently with the current controls. I can't advance too much (is very complex for me to destroy the enemies) and, therefore, I can't see if it is stable or not, so I won't review it. But your game is in English, so many people should be able to review it. I'm planning to launch a simple puzzle game in several languages, and, saw how this works, I'm worried a lot about it's future review process. You can consider yourself kind of lucky, beleive me. The real problem here is reserved for multilanguage games...

As long as you didn't fail the game then I'm ok with that.  I'm sorry it was a difficult game for you but it's not meant to be a simple free ride.  I remember when games used to take work to conquer.   You should have seen the difficulty before my other tester first played it.  Trust me, it was tough.  After some mods I think it's easy now but then again, I'm a vidmaster so my opinion is skewed.

I will certainly play your game and review it.

kstrat2001:

As long as you didn't fail the game then I'm ok with that

No. If I can't play a game because I'm not good enough, I simply don't review the game unless I see something wrong in the sections of the game I don't need to be that good to test them (for example, menu crashes, problems which make it unplayable, etc.). So, unfortunately, if the game is hard for me to play, I just can reject it for some good reason (crashes, etc.) or, simply, don't review it. As said, your game now is in the later case: I won't review it.

kstrat2001:

You should have seen the difficulty before my other tester first played it.  Trust me, it was tough.

Wow! If now it's difficult for me, I can't imagine how was it... Anyway, be careful with that. If a game is too hard, you're loosing potential buyers.

kstrat2001:

I will certainly play your game and review it.

I hope so. I can imagine you trying to find errors in order to reject it, hehehe. You'll need to wait some time to see my game here, as it is now just a concept. Anyway, I don't know if you will like it, as it will be a puzzle game. I think it's gameplay will be kind of unique, but everybody thinks the same about his/her game and a lot of times that's not true, so I could be wrong. You'll see it sometime in the near future. Just wait ;-)

The ZMan:

Descriptions are the indicator to the end users of a language. If they see an English description then they should expect to be able to understand English in the game.

As far as I understand from a BetsyAoky post, that's not correct:

BetsyAoki:

The language associated with the game binary - that is, the language you play the game in - does not necessarily have to be the  same as language of the description.