The ZMan:

Community games is not a general audience though... its unrated content which means it can be anything from E for everyone up to M for mature (ESRB words substitute your own national ratings outside the USA). Seems like AO Adults only games are mostly precluded by the CG ratings bar for sexual items though. I understand some folk are more sensitive to words than others but if you assume all CG are M for Mature then a few fart noises would seem to be well within the limits.

If this is the case, then I think that there should be more notice on the CG store. If this is indeed an unrated market, aside from community ratings, then the average person browsing the games should be made aware. Some kid browsing the store won't know that those ratings are community-given, which could cause confusion. I'd hate to see legal action force ESRB ratings for something like this.

This is why the xbox comes complete with a full set of parental ratings and lockouts, if a kid can see CG then its because their parent has allowed the account to see unrated content. Its no difference to a parent buying Halo for their kid, or an 18 DVD, or giving them a TV without the ratings turned on on there. We can debate parental responsibility until the cows come home and I'm sure you all will, but a warning won't help - parents who read it are the responsible ones who already have the lockout on. Those who don't care will never see it and the kids will just skip on by.

Microsoft worked pretty closely with the ESRB (and other ratings boards) with community games so hopefully they are aware and approve of what is happening. CG couldn't cope with ESRB ratings its a very expensive and lengthy process....

Sean McCafferty:

If this is the case, then I think that there should be more notice on the CG store.

It seems to me that there is already an abundance of notice about unrated content in the CG store. The only way for folks to purchase and play CG games without realizing that the games aren't rated is to ignore the information being presented, which clearly states that the games haven't been rated.

Antony Kancidrowski:

I think that there is a demographic for all games. However there should be decency and standards to adhere to. Personally I feel that there are certain words that are acceptable and others that are not (especially for a general audience).

Perhaps we should have another category for language.

Personally I think this is impossible to realize. For example it's only recent that de Western World knows that throwing shoes is an insult. Even within the bounadaries of languages or countries there are different opinions about what is descent.
The only thing you can do is inform your customer, and let him/her decide what's decent enough for him/her.

Marinus Holkema:

The only thing you can do is inform your customer, and let him/her decide what's decent enough for him/her.

Agreed. That's exactly what MS has set up.

I understand your points and desolving responsibility of content is one option. However, I doubt that any language could be used in a game published this way. I wonder just where the cut-off point comes?

If the only answer is for parents to block the XLGC content it seems unfair to the creators of games without questionable content.

I agree that its unfair if you strive for a game that is kid friendly and it gets lumped in with violent or adult themed games. But given the laws of video games there's little Microsoft can do. No indie can afford to go through an official ratings board, and without the offical ratings there is little you can do to assure people that your game really is as friendly as it seems. Poor old Australia doesn't allow unrated content at all on consoles so I'm sure MS is having lots of fun trying to get CG over there.

The cut off points are these (and you know that ratings boards and lawyers were involved in this list)

Advertising (Alcohol, Tobacco, Gambling)
Crimes vs. Humanity/Distasteful Violence
Encourages Illegal Activities
Direct Threats Against Person or Group
Human Excretion
Nazi Content or Symbols
Collecting Personal Information
Racist or Discriminatory Language
Full Nudity
Strong Sexual Content
Child Pornography
Unauthorized Content

If you have language that falls into one of those in enough reviewers eyes (and it can be subjective for some words I am sure) then you can't play in CG.

It is good to see that the cut off level has a high level of decency. Thanks for the information ZMan.

The ZMan:

Poor old Australia doesn't allow unrated content at all on consoles so I'm sure MS is having lots of fun trying to get CG over there.

Trust me zman we REALLY do want the r18+ rating for video games its just one Minister who  seems to want to kill the industry and gamers fun. I think this news article sums up our feelings.

"South Australian Attorney-General Huge McTool Michael Atkinson is staunchly opposed to the adult classification"

It seems to me the biggest problem with community games so far is the disparity between quality and pricing.  There are some good games in community games but most are not very good.  The problem with that is that the pricing options do not reflect the variability in quality.  And quality would not be so much an issue if there were lower price options.  The best market to compare this to is the iphone market simply because it is also a download service.  These two markets are very comparable.  In both cases you must have large exposure to the masses in order for the business models to really work.  In that regards, the 360 and the iPhone are identical.  Both systems are sold at essentially a hardware breakeven point.  Money is made on volume, software and services.  With the iphone, there are free and .99 options.  Those are impulse purchase price points and thus that's where most of the novelty stuff falls.  These lower price points also gain the market exposure needed to help sell the higher priced products.  It's an overall market strategy that's helps sell systems as well as the higher priced product because if all your going to have is electronic distribution, you must establish large exposure.  Also consider that community games by their nature are casual games so you are in direct competition with iphone like downloads and competing directly with that consumer market. 

The problem with community games is the pricing is too high even at $2.00.  At $8, your getting very close to competing with XBLA games of vastly higher quality.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ocean Scene or xFart or whatever.  It's not the product that matters.  It's the price charged for the product that establishes the customer expectations and will have a lasting impression to those who first check out community games.  There are 1000s of free games and apps on the iPhone, yet they are selling higher quality product by the thousands as well.  Their market is large enough and they have the exposure needed for the "for pay" stuff to pay for hosting the free stuff.  The 360 market is also large enough with roughly 28 million sold.  They have the market penetration and the market size to open this thing up to the masses.  So why are they launching the community games section like it's a beta phase, pre launch, "let's get a feel for things and see what the data shows".

I simply do not understand the thinking of not having free, .25, .50, .99, $2, $4, $6 and perhaps $8 price options.  Where is the downside of opening up the pricing structure to more options and letting the customer decide.  With these options, you increase your attraction to the masses and increase your market size regardless of quality.

My main frustration stems from the fact that I downloaded about 90 community trials and was very unimpressed.  It wasn't so much that I was turned off by the quality, although I was.  It was that I was being asked to pay $2 or $4 for this stuff. And I didn't want to go back to that section....and I'm an XNA developer.   

What exactly is the mindset of limiting pricing to $2, $4 and $8?  Paying for server space is not an answer.  I can get 25 gigs on SKyDrive for free, actually it's unlimited if you don't abuse it. 

I would argue that any first time observer who gives community games a look is going to be very turned off just as I was.  And that all comes down to price.  The sad truth is most people will not go back to that section on the 360 if they are turned off.  So waiting to see what happens doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Does anyone else feel the same way I do or am I just blowing smoke.

Allan

"Encourages Illegal Activities"

No GTA clones?


"Human Excretion"

Does farting fit in here? Also, sweat is technically excretion.


"Nazi Content or Symbols"

We can't fight the Third Reich?


"Strong Sexual Content"

Are we talking about being on the level of Leisure Suit Larry, or Japanese games involving tentacles?


Are the objectionable criteria defined in greater detail anywhere? I'm not working on any concepts involving farting Nazi tentacles stealing vehicles, but I think that these particular points should be a bit more detailed. All the points should definitely be there, but more detail would mean no confusion.

My personal opinion is that just showing illegal activity isn't encouraging it, excretion is number 1 and number 2, no you can't fight the 3rd reich, but you can fight soldiers that look similar (I'm sure this one is in there because Germany has strict rules, MS one day want to include Germany and its better to have a single worldwide rule for it).

As for strong sexual content on the 2nd review page there are ratings (Jon kindly broke them out here http://www.enchantedage.com/xna-ratings). If your sexual content fits in the 1-4 then I say you are ok. If its beyond #4 then that's considered strong.

We can spend days/weeks/months arguing the minutia of the words Microsoft chose, even if they clarified them there are some who will spend even longer debating them.

There's going to be content on CG that offends some just like there is on TV. If you see it and you don't like it but its not extreme then turn it off. Personally I find reality shows terrible, but I don't spend my life trying to get them off TV. My gf thinks all horror movies are far too horrible - so I watch them on my own - she doesn't try to get them banned or debate the sentence structure of the movie ratings board.

To get back on track for this thread, farts are funny, you found them funny as a kid, your kids find them funny even if you pretend to be offended as an adult. I hear there are some cultures that measure beauty by the smell and sound of a persons fart, and elections are won by the person who can drop one the most times in an hour.... though I do hear that in that culture chasing a gorilla with a hammer up ladders is considered to be an illegal activity ;-)

The ZMan:

I'm sure this one is in there because Germany has strict rules, MS one day want to include Germany and its better to have a single worldwide rule for it.

That doesn't make too much sense: If it were added solely for us Germans then violence and cruelty levels 3 (referring to XNA Creators Club game ratings categories) would have been adjusted, too. My guessing of that rule would be to prevent sneaking in a propaganda game of sorts, not being defamatory by a strict definition. But in the end the reason is irrelevant anyway :]

Just to back Zman up a little bit here, the ESRB process is painfully long and costs more to acquire than most Community Games will ever earn. Not to mention the heavy fines that you receive for simple errors, like not having your rating shown correctly on trailers, webpages and even company newsletters!

I am very happy with the rating system that Microsoft has created, and I agree 100% with the statement that it's the parents responsibility to use the parental controls. In the 80's and 90's it was TV's that parents used as babysitters, now it's computers.... What has happened to the world.

I feel strongly that Community Games will eventually advance the gaming industry even further than we currently could ever imagine, it's just going to some take time and effort from us, the community Developers, to release decently polished games (Yes, I know with our budgets it's not possible to make AAA titles, but we can show some pride in our work and bring back the mindset that anyone can make quality games that we somehow lost in the 90's with the creation of 3D, Shaders and 30 million dollar game budgets...).

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Joseph Paolinelli
Abandon Interactive Entertainment
http://www.FreakyCreatures.com/

The ZMan:

This is why the xbox comes complete with a full set of parental ratings and lockouts, if a kid can see CG then its because their parent has allowed the account to see unrated content. Its no difference to a parent buying Halo for their kid, or an 18 DVD, or giving them a TV without the ratings turned on on there. We can debate parental responsibility until the cows come home and I'm sure you all will, but a warning won't help - parents who read it are the responsible ones who already have the lockout on. Those who don't care will never see it and the kids will just skip on by.

Microsoft worked pretty closely with the ESRB (and other ratings boards) with community games so hopefully they are aware and approve of what is happening. CG couldn't cope with ESRB ratings its a very expensive and lengthy process....

Bjoern Graf:

The ZMan:

I'm sure this one is in there because Germany has strict rules, MS one day want to include Germany and its better to have a single worldwide rule for it.

That doesn't make too much sense: If it were added solely for us Germans then violence and cruelty levels 3 (referring to XNA Creators Club game ratings categories) would have been adjusted, too. My guessing of that rule would be to prevent sneaking in a propaganda game of sorts, not being defamatory by a strict definition. But in the end the reason is irrelevant anyway :]

Personally, I think ZMan is spot-on with his assumption. Björn, I'm sure you are aware that here in Germany there is a law that makes it illegal to show/use symbols of forbidden organizations ("verfassungsfeindliche Organisationen" that have been forbidden by the constitutional court)? Such usage/display is more or less generally forbidden no matter for which purpose (even if for more-or-less well intended purposes, except for certain exceptions). Remember the problems some people had who were selling/displaying buttons with a crossed-out Swastika (Hakenkreuz) that obviously was meant as an anti-fascist statement but which still got them indicted before a court? (And it had to go up to the highest court until it was finally made clear that this does not fall under the using/showing-of-symbols-of-illegal-organizations law and was indeed not illegal)?
Because of this law, there are no games in Germany (legally) where you fight the Third Reich or Nazi-soldiers or similar who are actually using the official/real symbols, like Swastikas (even if the guys using those symbols are the bad ones). Those games either are never released in Germany or are changed so that made-up symbols are used instead of the real ones. For example in the German version of "Indiana Jones, The last Crusade" [the computer game, not the movie!], all Swastikas were painted over.
The same rule would apply for community games too: Any community game which uses these symbols would immediately be illegal in Germany. I am sure that MS is aware of this and I think it's likely that the no-nazi-symbols rule has been added because of this, to be prepared for a CG release in Germany. Not withstanding that by forbidding these symbols, you also avoid lots of other hate/racism related problems even in countries that don't have a similar law.

Doc

Spyn Doctor:

Not withstanding that by forbidding these symbols, you also avoid lots of other hate/racism related problems even in countries that don't have a similar law.

Doc

And I assume the latter is the main motivation for forbidding these symbols and not the special case of the German law :]

Another very interesting thread here!

I think it is difficult to decide which is appropriate and what's not, as each individual have their own view about many thing life.  Either because of their religious believe, culture, education, etc...

So imho to implement some restriction will goes a bit against the nature of XNA itself which was a place that democratize game developement and let people have freedom of expression.  Maybe it is not everyone that will like application like XFart or my upcoming xBurp and xPuke (just joking about those 2 ;-)).  But I say let the consummer decide which thing they like and would like to spend their hard earn money.  I know we might get upset by seeing applications such as xFart getting in the top selling, but if this is what our consummer like we should either decide to make our xBurp or find another audience.  This remind me of the Wii, where alot of people were thinking it was going to be just a fad and it is not really geared toward hardcore gamers.  Oh boy were we all wrong, now Nintendo is selling those like hotcake and they dont seem to be any slow down.  The consummer has decided that the Wii was indeed fun and more interesting to get than either the 360 or the PS3.

What I think should be added to the XBLCG service is some form of user rating, where we can see something from 1 star to 5 star and how many rating yo got.  This way you could filter game with the highest rating or highest download and it will be decided by the consummer.  Also a comment section would be nice, where people could say some short sentence about the game (either if they like it or not).  Another ideas would also to implement some form of tags, which also you could easily filter for example "screensaver", "interactive art", "shooter", "fighting", "racing", "sports", etc...

This is how it was done in Little Big Planet and I liked it, I could search for the most popular/rated levels, search for some specific tags such as "musicial", "vehicle", etc... Ohhh and some people rated the level I did with a 1 star rating and tags it as "rubish" and left some hangry comments ;-) (well my level was incomplete as it was done during the beta and publish as is) so its ok.

Once we start to see statistic of what is popular on XBLCG we will know if stuff like xFart will get popular or not.  I think releasing some of those funny thing for 200 MS point aint that bad, its about what I paid to get Linger in Shadow on the PSN (2.99$) and it is basically a demo from the demoscene but with an interactive twist to it.

So anyone up for developing on my ideas of xBurp and xPuke? ;-)

Fred

I purchased Noby Noby Boy on PSN the other night. NNB could be classified as a "non-game," but it has a great deal of creativity. While it rips off previous concepts such as Snake, Pac-Man, and the creator's distinct Katamari art direction, it does so in a creative manner. The only goal of the game is to eat things, with the reward being that you are contributing to a collective global progress meter.

In my opinion, NNB is THE example of how a non-game should be done. It's not amazingly detailed, but it's fun. It has enough interactivity to fit a loose description of the word "game," but it's something that couldn't be done easily in Flash, Shockwave, or any of those tools used to make casual web games. If something DOES lean more toward being doable in Flash, then it's probably a good idea to add to it before releasing it.

As for "xPuke," I belive that something similar was approved the other day. However, it actually involved a competitive element, which I suppose lets it pass.

@Sean

Ohhh you did like me? I also got Noby Noby Boy and damn yesterday I spent probably 2 hours toying around with it ;-).  It is damn addictive and like you said it can be exactly considered as a game with the standard definition.   And it is indeed something that could be very interesting to see if someone on XNA come up with some very original concept.

Damn I knew I should have release it sooner, now someone is already profiting from my genius ideas ahahahah!  Ohhh but they are still xBurp which I can release a beat this one and the xFart.  Everyone know that BURP rules the world :-p

Fred