Hey Novaleaf,

I think you underestimate the power of leaderboards, achievements, and gamerscore. If your game was on XBLA, you would have a huge number of people willing to buy it based on these 3 things alone. Good luck with your next project!

Novaleaf Software:

Originality Case in point: Powerup Forever vs Biology Battle.  Both games can be safely classified as "Dual Stick Arcade Shmup".  Biology Battle was released Nov 19th.  It's metacritic score is 69.  sales hover around 1500.  Powerup Forever was released Dec 10th.  It's metacritic score is 62, and has about 9000 sales.   Biology Battle has more media reviews than Powerup Forever, indicating better PR (if not marketing).  Biology Battle is also more original than powerup forever (you don't have to believe me, read the metacritic reviews (BB, PF) for both titles).   So then the question is: Why does Biology Battle, a game that is funner, more original than Powerup Forever, get about 16% of the sales?   Well again "Goto Hypothesis #1", stated above.

Although I agree with you that bad game fatigue is probably having a major effect on the sales (or lack thereof) of Community Games, I don't think that's the only explanation for Powerup Forever's drastically higher sales.  First off, Powerup Forever is drastically better looking than Biology Battle (Biology Battle is pretty, but Powerup Forever is gorgeous) which is going to win it some converts.  Plus, the metacritic comparison is mostly worthless as both games are very close to each other and both games are in the "Below Average" category (speaking only of Metacritic score; I personally think Biology Battle is a pretty fun game).

I still think the best thing Biology Battle could have done would be to come out at a 400 pt price tag.  Not only would that have increased sales simply by virtue of being cheaper, but it would have also resulted in noticeably better review scores (many of the reviews complained about the price tag) which would have created additional sales.  I don't know that it would have made enough to pay back the costs put into making it at 400 pts, but I do believe it would have made a lot more than it did.

Sheemalakameeda:

Here's a couple of quick easy ways to market your game(s).

1. Submit your game and release info to some of the CG sites, or even a press release other gaming websites. If they like what they see, they will post it.

2. Tell your XBox Live friends and have them tell theirs. You already know they have an XBox 360, which is better than blind blanketed advertising, and they are more likely to give it a try if they know you. Whenever me and my friends find a game we really like, we tell each other to pick it up. Plus, you can see them playing online.

3. Post videos to video sites like YouTube. This may not be the most effective, but it is free and does give it some mass exposure.

4. Create a website for your game(s). If people want to know more about your game, let them get the info. The demo on XBL itself may not be enough.

5. Create some flyers and ask your local video/game rental store would hand these out with some game rentals. It won't cost you much and wouldn't hurt to ask. Even ask some of the workers at GameStop, Bestbuy or whatever to keep some by their counter or display consoles. Like I said, it doesn't hurt to ask. Maybe they'd go as far as putting the demo on the display consoles.


Word of mouth is probably your best option, unless you can afford to do some heavy advertising in television and radio spots. Think of the music you buy, most music I get turned on to, I hear about it from a friend and not just on TV or the radio.

I wouldd add one extra point:

6. Invest time in your boxart. That's what most gamers will see first of your game. Even before than the game's title, genre, price, features, etc.

WaaghMan:

Sheemalakameeda:

Here's a couple of quick easy ways to market your game(s).

1. Submit your game and release info to some of the CG sites, or even a press release other gaming websites. If they like what they see, they will post it.

2. Tell your XBox Live friends and have them tell theirs. You already know they have an XBox 360, which is better than blind blanketed advertising, and they are more likely to give it a try if they know you. Whenever me and my friends find a game we really like, we tell each other to pick it up. Plus, you can see them playing online.

3. Post videos to video sites like YouTube. This may not be the most effective, but it is free and does give it some mass exposure.

4. Create a website for your game(s). If people want to know more about your game, let them get the info. The demo on XBL itself may not be enough.

5. Create some flyers and ask your local video/game rental store would hand these out with some game rentals. It won't cost you much and wouldn't hurt to ask. Even ask some of the workers at GameStop, Bestbuy or whatever to keep some by their counter or display consoles. Like I said, it doesn't hurt to ask. Maybe they'd go as far as putting the demo on the display consoles.


Word of mouth is probably your best option, unless you can afford to do some heavy advertising in television and radio spots. Think of the music you buy, most music I get turned on to, I hear about it from a friend and not just on TV or the radio.

I wouldd add one extra point:

6. Invest time in your boxart. That's what most gamers will see first of your game. Even before than the game's title, genre, price, features, etc.

All those are good points, but, if you follow the entire discussion you will discover that this is not enough, and downloads are low even for who did everything in that list (and more).
Mkt helps, you can get some extra downloads but a lot less than expected, looks like there is a "channel issue" here and the CG audience is actually really small.

Running Pixel:

All those are good points, but, if you follow the entire discussion you will discover that this is not enough, and downloads are low even for who did everything in that list (and more).
Mkt helps, you can get some extra downloads but a lot less than expected, looks like there is a "channel issue" here and the CG audience is actually really small.

I don't buy that. A staggering number of people have been buying RC-Airsim. Why? I don't know but if you could bottle some of that there would be a lot of developers willing to buy it.

Pheel:

I don't buy that. A staggering number of people have been buying RC-Airsim. Why? I don't know but if you could bottle some of that there would be a lot of developers willing to buy it.

I do know: black magic! :D

Anyway, who knows which kind of promotion they did?

I've not found any particular thing around the web regarding this game, I was, instead, able to find a game with the same name for PC called RC-AirSim, so it is a port of a previous game into CG? Is this the reason for its success?

Running Pixel:

Anyway, who knows which kind of promotion they did?

I've not found any particular thing around the web regarding this game, I was, instead, able to find a game with the same name for PC called RC-AirSim, so it is a port of a previous game into CG? Is this the reason for its success?

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that a game might sell staggering numbers just because it's a good game with mass appeal. Why does there need to be another reason?

Craig Martin:

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that a game might sell staggering numbers just because it's a good game with mass appeal. Why does there need to be another reason?

Oh, I'm sorry, it was not my intention offend anyone. I'm just asking which kind of marketing they did.
It is a case study to me, the game looks pretty good but not outstanding, so I'm curious to know which are the reason for their legitimate success.

Sheemalakameeda:

Here's a couple of quick easy ways to market your game(s).

1. Submit your game and release info to some of the CG sites, or even a press release other gaming websites. If they like what they see, they will post it.

2. Tell your XBox Live friends and have them tell theirs. You already know they have an XBox 360, which is better than blind blanketed advertising, and they are more likely to give it a try if they know you. Whenever me and my friends find a game we really like, we tell each other to pick it up. Plus, you can see them playing online.

3. Post videos to video sites like YouTube. This may not be the most effective, but it is free and does give it some mass exposure.

4. Create a website for your game(s). If people want to know more about your game, let them get the info. The demo on XBL itself may not be enough.

5. Create some flyers and ask your local video/game rental store would hand these out with some game rentals. It won't cost you much and wouldn't hurt to ask. Even ask some of the workers at GameStop, Bestbuy or whatever to keep some by their counter or display consoles. Like I said, it doesn't hurt to ask. Maybe they'd go as far as putting the demo on the display consoles.


Word of mouth is probably your best option, unless you can afford to do some heavy advertising in television and radio spots. Think of the music you buy, most music I get turned on to, I hear about it from a friend and not just on TV or the radio.

And, as I've already stated multiple times, a VERY EASY option is to spend time contacting writers who work for 360 Magazines (primarily in the UK and the US since that's where your sales will coem from). Talk to them on the phone regularly, keep them updates by signing them up to your mailing lists, let them see your work before anyone else does and if they like it (and like you) they'll help you out. I've worked on mod projects in the past and got plenty of features and snippets in PC magazines in the UK and US in the past this way and I know the same people would offer small pieces in the magazines for 360 games if you spent the time talking to them... really, I can't stress enough how many readers you are putting your game infront of if you get a piece in even a single 360 magazine. It's far more useful than a spot on TV or Radio as your target market are the ones reading the magazines in the first place!

Novaleaf Software:

I strongly feel that sorting by user ratings (or metacritic, or a combination), and perhaps better sub-genre categorization, are the ways to make XBLCG valuable.  Sure, adding XBLA features like leaderboards and achievements will put us on equal footing technically, but what's really setting us back isn't XBLA, it's the low barrier of entry, XBLCG's own successful "democratization of game development" that is killing the commercial aspect of the service.

Metacritic is a good idea.

Even with the best marketing for the best games we're still only seeing a tiny fraction of the downloads XBLA games get. Because of this I think actually having no leader-boards and achievements is a good thing in a way, it means it would be sensible of Microsoft to feature the most downloaded community games at the 70% developer cut, because pro devs are always going to go for leader-boards and achievements at the lower cut, even if we only get 20%-50% of the downloads of an XBLA game because of the achievement point collectors, it's still a million times more profitable for everybody.

I don't see any reason why the best Community Games can't be featured where the average user can see them, when the NXE came along there was a video (albeit a highly confusing one, but that can easily be corrected) and a link to community games in the spotlight section, surely it makes financial sense for this to be permanent and improved to show the cream of the crop?

Why are there so many requests for user ratings? We already have a Most Popular category. Users should vote with their money. They just need to split the most popular by price, or conversion rate, or some combination. It'd be a lot easier, and better, than user ratings.

J Force Games:

Why are there so many requests for user ratings? We already have a Most Popular category. Users should vote with their money. They just need to split the most popular by price, or conversion rate, or some combination. It'd be a lot easier, and better, than user ratings.

Because it's already pretty well known that "Most Popular" doesn't mean "Most Purchased". Most people have realized that trials also factor into that in some way. It's not that it's completely flawed, but a user rating system is better. In addition, just because more people bought something doesn't mean they liked it. Maybe it was a good trial, but they were underwhelmed with the full product. User ratings are much better if you want to see what users like.

J Force Games:

Why are there so many requests for user ratings? We already have a Most Popular category. Users should vote with their money.

Nick Gravelyn:

J Force Games:

Why are there so many requests for user ratings? We already have a Most Popular category. Users should vote with their money. They just need to split the most popular by price, or conversion rate, or some combination. It'd be a lot easier, and better, than user ratings.

Because it's already pretty well known that "Most Popular" doesn't mean "Most Purchased". Most people have realized that trials also factor into that in some way. It's not that it's completely flawed, but a user rating system is better.

They could just change the name to Most Purchased? And then turn it into 3 categories, one for each price point...or something.

In addition, just because more people bought something doesn't mean they liked it. Maybe it was a good trial, but they were underwhelmed with the full product. User ratings are much better if you want to see what users like.

Ah, good point. That seems like the only flaw to me though. It seems like there would be more flaws with user ratings. How many ratings would it take? They can only rate purchased games? And what about large communities rating up a joke game...as a joke? I know you guys have probably already discussed this stuff. Sorry.

Anyway, I'm not completely against user ratings. They could only help. I just don't think they're the solution that everybody's making them out to be.

On top of all Nick said, which I agree with. There is also another important reason.

New people discover the Community Games Channel everyday. If I was new, I would go there and see what is currently the most popular which is like 20 out of 200+ games. How do I know what are the good games that I missed? Old games are new to me. I don't really want to download and try 200+ games to find the 5 gems.

For example, I would miss out completely on Miner Dig Deep. I Peer Reviewed the game because I peer Review every game that is not an app. The box didn't attract me, the icon didn't, the screen shots didn't, the description certainly didn't. Searching through the Games Catalog I wouldn't even bother to download it. Just as I felt forced to in Peer Review. However, once you play the game it is really hard to put it down. So hard, in fact, we bought the game.

Now if that game had 5 stars I would download it just to see why it was rated so high. I would get addicted and buy it.

That is why user reviews are important. The Arcade has the same issue but on a smaller scope. It also has about 200 titles and 20 are displayed in the most popular. There aren't nearly as many Arcade titles added. Community Games averages in a week what the Arcade adds in a year. As such, really old titles like Worms that are really popular are still on the Most Popular List.

Another reason is the rising Download Counts as more people find out about Community Games. Older Good Games are never as popular as Newer Not-so-Good games simply because there are more players to download them.

BTW I'm not trying to change this thread to user-ratings. Microsoft knows we need them and I'm pretty sure eventually we'll have them particulary as the entire digital delivery system on the Xbox needs them as there is just so much content now. User Ratings are just one of the things we need that we have no control over. We should be discussing things we can control or things that Microsoft doesn't know already we need.

Patrick

J Force Games:

Anyway, I'm not completely against user ratings. They could only help. I just don't think they're the solution that everybody's making them out to be.

I completely agree. User ratings help older titles once people go to Community Games. The largest issue getting them there in the first place.

What we need is:

1 - Get them to Community Games
2 - Get them a good game to try
3 - Get them to buy it

The first one we can't do much about. None of us has the resources for it. Not that we shouldn't try with what we can though. The second one is half up to us. We need to make good games with a good trial, but we also need to have people easilly find them which we can't control.
The third one is completely up to us.

Patrick

J Force, I think you're only thinking about it from a dev's point of view.  Put yourself in the mindset of a new users to the system and then start trying to find a game on the Community Games channel.  I'm sure you'd see that ratings would be great for the system.  The "popular games" doesn't come close to telling the whole story.

The real deal is no matter how you sort them there will be a top 10 list and everyone else. There is only so much real estate on the front pages, they have increased the list to 20. Everyone else is in the ghetto. I think the highest rated will probably sort out similar to highest sales, similar to most popular.

I also don't believe that the top 10 is totally self perpetuating, if that were the case no one would drop off. Yes we do have 4-5 games that have stayed on the top 10, but the others come and go. I think they usually (always?) come from the new releases.

Something MS could do is have a random list, like we have the top 10, sales, ratings whatever, and a list that is randomly populated with 10-20 games from the catalog. I think this will let people see content they haven't seen before, and get games on the front page that have never been there since they were first released.

I also have to comment on the BB vs Powerup. We are indy, they are major studio. More people will go to a major studio picture, than an indy studio picture, no matter what the critic ratings. An indy pic can win the Oscar and still not do as well financially as some third rate generic romantic comedy.  The masses are sheep that prefer to put their dollars into something they know over something new. Our audience is apparently not looking for more of the same but for something different, quirky and fun. Air Sim, Word Soup, Solar all  offer a different experience than the stuff on XBLA.

The price was also a mistake, should have been 400pts. You probably would have sold more than twice as many at half the price. Sadly the thing you couldn't control was a major release of a similar game right on your heels. No matter what we do, an XBLA release will most probably do way better than we will.

Big Daddio:

The real deal is no matter how you sort them there will be a top 10 list and everyone else.

Not sure if I agree. With ratings the user is much more inclined to check out the rest of the highly rated games.

I am looking at the first experience, the user has 4 choices and what appears to be the most popular games. We have New Arrivals, Most Popular, Browse, Contest Finalists, and 10 game covers. They appear to be the top 10, it's not Maj Nelsons top 10, maybe the most popular top 10?

On Arcade they have a button labeled Arcade Hits. maybe we need a highest rated? Best Sellers? I don't know. It doesn't seem that the Contest Finalists got a lot more play from that button. If they did then it's the game not the exposure.

Getting into the browse is probably where we lose them. If you look at all games it defaults to alphabetical order, it would be nicer if the default were popularity at the very least or if we had it, by user ratings. Even when I sort a category by popularity, if I change categories it defaults back to alphabetical. All the User Experience people I work with would have my cajones if I did that.

My point is that however you rank them, the top games will always get more attention than the others. No matter how you rank them there will always be a 90+% of the other games in the ghetto.

Big Daddio:

My point is that however you rank them, the top games will always get more attention than the others. No matter how you rank them there will always be a 90+% of the other games in the ghetto

Increasing the searchability will help all of the games by attracting a larger user base, I wrote a rant about that here.

Harald Maassen:

Big Daddio:

My point is that however you rank them, the top games will always get more attention than the others. No matter how you rank them there will always be a 90+% of the other games in the ghetto

Increasing the searchability will help all of the games by attracting a larger user base, I wrote a rant about that here.

I know I can't help on the Xbox side of things, but I've been working on making an easy-to-use website for browsing all the XBLCG titles: http://xblcg.info. It updates automatically, has the thumbnails, descriptions, genres, developers, and shortened links for the marketplace page (which I highly recommend all developers use since I do track clickthroughs on those and just started supporting referral IDs). I'm working on it in most of my free time so hopefully it will keep expanding and at least help with the PC side of things.

XNA Connect Feedback about randomized community games list.

https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=432022&SiteID=226

Running Pixel:

Craig Martin:

I don't get why it's so hard to accept that a game might sell staggering numbers just because it's a good game with mass appeal. Why does there need to be another reason?

Oh, I'm sorry, it was not my intention offend anyone. I'm just asking which kind of marketing they did.
It is a case study to me, the game looks pretty good but not outstanding, so I'm curious to know which are the reason for their legitimate success.

I wasn't offended :). You just came across as refusing to believe something could sell well simply on it's merit.

darthuvuis:

XNA Connect Feedback about randomized community games list.

https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=432022&SiteID=226

I see Nick has already opened one like this. Thanks Nick!

https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=386833&SiteID=226

Now go vote for it!