Nick Gravelyn:

Anchorcast:

If you lack the knowledge to use the feature, that's your fault, it's not a technical defect on the part of the game.

So when consumers get frustrated or confused over not figuring out how to exit the game, instead of admitting fault on the side of the developer, you're saying we should just call them ignorant and raise our noses? Sounds like a great way to increase the already low general perception of XBLCG.

You cannot look the other way while users sit frustrated because of some technical design document clearly states there's a way to achieve the user's desire.  All that matters is the what the user is doing and experiencing.  The only way CGs are going to have a better perception from the outside is to enforce everyone to meet certain levels of standards, and forget about actually getting developers to understand human emotions and user interface issues.  We're programmers at heart and we just don't get those sorts of things that matter to the common consumer.  I catch myself making these mistakes all the time when others view my work.  It's just easier to point out someone else's flaws than your own because you don't have a preconception of how it should work.  Luckily we have a system that allows this to happen -- playtest and peer review.  I'd say let's increase the standard.

(Maybe it might be a good idea to have a sneak peak into what XBLA demands for its quality assurance, just to see -- even if you don't understand it -- what must be done to have an XBLA quality game, for no other reason but to learn what it takes to have a quality game -- again, even if you don't understand why.)

I voted no. Although all of my games will include an exit option, I don't believe it can be considered a technical failure on the part of the game. The game is still "exit-able" through the Dashboard (which I myself discovered on accident, so I'm not unaware of the potential for other users to miss out on that fact, too).

Jim Perry:

... As a reminder, here's the verbage on the review page:

Every game submitted to the XNA Creators Club Online Web site needs to be free of errors, annoying slowdowns, crashes, hangs, or other problems that would frustrate or confuse a player.

Note that "technical" is nowhere in there. It's "problems that would frustrate or confuse". ...

Thanks Jim.  Accoding to that, for all of us who use "exit game" to quit a game will be frustrated and confused.  For all who use the guide, they won't notice.  It's fine.  Some of us will fail when a frustration occurs.  Some of us won't notice the frustration and won't fail.

Nick Gravelyn:

I've made a quick poll here: http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/30851/174960.aspx.

Maybe this poll should quote the relevant part of the peer review process (that Jim quoted) so it's not just an opinion poll?

Based on the current poll results, it looks like this is a polarizing issue. :)

My opinion: Based on the current peer review standards, this should not be a failable issue. While I strongly argue that there is no good reason not to include a quit option, I personally do not consider it to be a defect for a game to lack one. Consider a few other items that we don't fail if they are missing:

1. Allowing both left thumbstick and DPad for motion input
2. Using A for accept and B for cancel
3. Using Start for pause

Now, if the community decides that lacking a quit option is a failable offense, I think we should revisit these three issues as well, because in my opinion, they fall into the same category.

Rainault:

Consider a few other items that we don't fail if they are missing:

1. Allowing both left thumbstick and DPad for motion input
2. Using A for accept and B for cancel
3. Using Start for pause

Now, if the community decides that lacking a quit option is a failable offense, I think we should revisit these three issues as well, because in my opinion, they fall into the same category.

That's definitely my line of thought as well. If we start failing for not providing an intuitive way to quit the game, then all other control-related issues are suddenly fair game - and not necessarily just menu navigation issues, but also non-standard gameplay configurations, etc.

Rainault:

Based on the current poll results, it looks like this is a polarizing issue. :)

My opinion: Based on the current peer review standards, this should not be a failable issue. While I strongly argue that there is no good reason not to include a quit option, I personally do not consider it to be a defect for a game to lack one. Consider a few other items that we don't fail if they are missing:

1. Allowing both left thumbstick and DPad for motion input
2. Using A for accept and B for cancel
3. Using Start for pause

Now, if the community decides that lacking a quit option is a failable offense, I think we should revisit these three issues as well, because in my opinion, they fall into the same category.

Yes, and that's why I didn't want to deal with this issue in the first place, because it opens a whole can of worms that doesn't need to be opened.  Do you guys seriously think issues like this are the things that make people think CG is filled with crapware?

I'm strongly opposed to forcing developers to have obtrusive and unnecessary "tips" or HUD elements, for instance.  It's already difficult enough crafting attractive, usable, and appealing game screens without having to clutter them up with more nonsense that almost every user knows about.  And this is the sort of thing we're going to have to deal with if we start failing for minor usability "problems" like this.  Some people will think these other issues fall under that category, and they're going to fail for them regardless of what the "community vote" says.

Which brings me to my next point.  Who decided that failure points should be chosen by a simple majority vote?  If a simple majority of users thought that including Pink Elephants should be a failure point, would we fail for that too?  We were given specific guidelines by Microsoft, and we need to follow those, not invent our own in a misguided attempt to "raise the quality of XBLCG".

Hopefully the developers have a maturity to not vote yes to something like pink elephants.  Games need to follow certain guidelines so that there is some consistency between them.  That just makes it easier on the end user.  Also, developers are often players of games themselves so they know what should and shouldn't exist in a game.

Joe:

Hopefully the developers have a maturity to not vote yes to something like pink elephants.  Games need to follow certain guidelines so that there is some consistency between them.  That just makes it easier on the end user.  Also, developers are often players of games themselves so they know what should and shouldn't exist in a game.

Yes, and Microsoft is the one who gets to decide those guidelines, not us.

The problem is of course that the "confusing or frustrating" phrase is going to be continually tested because its not definitive. The rules from Microsoft only go so far.

Nobody said a simple majority is enough... the vote is just to gauge feedback and its as good a way as any. Possibly better than the 10 page threads that normally happen and get locked... through seems like we have both this time. Woo Hoo...

Excalibur Studios:

That's definitely my line of thought as well. If we start failing for not providing an intuitive way to quit the game, then all other control-related issues are suddenly fair game - and not necessarily just menu navigation issues, but also non-standard gameplay configurations, etc.

They are fair game to discussion and community vote just like anything else. But nothing else immediately becomes fair game to failing games.

Anchorcast:

Do you guys seriously think issues like this are the things that make people think CG is filled with crapware?

It certainly doesn't help. I know I downloaded (in consumer mode) a bunch of games and two of them really pissed me off because I had to quit with the Guide button.

Some people will think these other issues fall under that category, and they're going to fail for them regardless of what the "community vote" says.

And those people will fail them anyway. Report them as abusive votes.

Who decided that failure points should be chosen by a simple majority vote?  If a simple majority of users thought that including Pink Elephants should be a failure point, would we fail for that too?

I'm fairly certain Microsoft would overrule that one which is my point. This is a fairly reasonable issue and unless Microsoft rules this as unreasonable I see no reason why we can't add it to our already community generated list of fail points. 

Rainault:

Based on the current poll results, it looks like this is a polarizing issue. :)

My opinion: Based on the current peer review standards, this should not be a failable issue. While I strongly argue that there is no good reason not to include a quit option, I personally do not consider it to be a defect for a game to lack one. Consider a few other items that we don't fail if they are missing:

1. Allowing both left thumbstick and DPad for motion input
2. Using A for accept and B for cancel
3. Using Start for pause

Now, if the community decides that lacking a quit option is a failable offense, I think we should revisit these three issues as well, because in my opinion, they fall into the same category.

These 3 are more of a standard control usage issue than not providing functionality. There are other things on the Not So Evil list that I'd like to fail for as well, but that's probably just me. I'd like to reduce the submissions that are basically crap to make people a quick buck, but I'm not holding my breath.

Rainault:

Based on the current poll results, it looks like this is a polarizing issue. :)

My opinion: Based on the current peer review standards, this should not be a failable issue. While I strongly argue that there is no good reason not to include a quit option, I personally do not consider it to be a defect for a game to lack one. Consider a few other items that we don't fail if they are missing:

1. Allowing both left thumbstick and DPad for motion input
2. Using A for accept and B for cancel
3. Using Start for pause

Now, if the community decides that lacking a quit option is a failable offense, I think we should revisit these three issues as well, because in my opinion, they fall into the same category.

I agree, and honestly believe these above points should be done. I know I quickly supported them, as they are in the best practices guide issued from Microsoft. We as a community have already adapted quite a bit of the best practices guide as part of our own CG TCR list essentially, I don't think adding the above would be harmful in anyway, and would probably help.

For what it's worth: I voted a definite "No".

However, just like others here who voted "no", I'm also sure that all my games will contain an exit option. (Actually, one of my first peer-review feedback posts, I think back in beta days still, was to tell someone, that not having an exit option was not very user friendly). But anyway, I'm against making this a failable "defect".

My reasons for this are along the whole "don't open that can of worms" line of arguments others have already given. Generally, even though I'm the originator of the "evil list", I think that less rules in peer review are better than more. So any potential new rule should be weighted if it adds enough on the "good" side, compared to the "bad" side. And this one is not one of those, I think.
And I think that calling this too frustrating/confusing is really streching it. Sounds to me more like an alibi argument to be allowed to fail for something one doesn't like, not for something that objectively and genuinely is frustrating/confusing (and there's the slippery slope/can of worms right there: "failing for things one doesn't like").

Doc

I voted no.  None of the arguments for it seem solid enough to convince me.  Sure, it's probably poor design, but it doesn't make the game non-functional.  It just simply doesn't make the intrinsic function of 'back to dashboard' available from a game menu.  It doesn't disable the function available in the guide, so it's not a defect.

I think what many of us are calling sub-par games etc are exactly the reason we have XNA. To give everyone, not just experienced developers a place to publish something. Nothing says this is a Professional Area. Nothing says Experienced coders only. Microsoft gives XNA away free to students. This is just another case of experienced more professional developers trying to find any reason to keep "crappy games" off the system.  Another way for some people to fail a beginner and another reason to call someones work crappy. We will always have games that look like slideshows, bad art, terrible control schemes. Its part and parcel with the amatuer/indy game market. We are not XBLA jr. Crappy games are a given with the openness of the system. An exit button is not going to make most of these games any better, get over it.

For all of you who didn't know how to exit a game with the guide button, you have never played a disk game on your system?

I'm not an experienced programmer, I'm more of a low level intermediate... so I have to disagree with your 'this is a case of...'

i voted no preference, but good luck, maybe this will be the first objective review guideline, then we can get others.

I wish we could fail games for not giving a graceful exit option.  It's a tiny amount of work to provide the customer with a simple exit button.

As a consumer the ONLY time I should have to quit a game via the GUIDE button is if it has annoyed me so much that I'm performing a "rage quit" 

All downloadable games before XBLCG, and including most of XBLCG, have a menu option to quit so gamers expect it, therefore it's frustrating to gamers who use it when it not there.  I would fail any game for this based on frustration.  The last thing we need to be concerned with is having another reason to fail games.  220 out of 250 games on our system are rated below 55% according to xblcg.info.  There will always be bad games in XBLCG so, please, at least give all the users an easy way to quit them.  An exit option is some games' best feature.  It's bad enough to make gamers experience some of our bad games, let's not trap them inside of it.  It's like a virtual torture chamber.

darthuvuis:

i voted no preference, but good luck, maybe this will be the first objective review guideline, then we can get others.

It almost worries me for us to travel too far down this path, and it's the only part of me which told me to not vote the way I did (fail).  I want to maintain as much freedom as possible, but I do object to obstruction of user interface.

Matthew Doucette:

220 out of 250 games on our system are rated below 55% according to xblcg.info.

100% of top 10 is rated below 55% according to xblcg.info. RC-Air sim is 29%. The best selling thing for like 15 weeks now?

Adding quit to the menu on every game is not going to make your game or my game sell any more. the only thing that will is the market liking what your selling.

Good point BD, but my view on this is not to make the games sell more.  Just let's not frustrate the gamer when we can avoid it with a standard that, unless I'm missing something, is both easy to implement and is not restricting any freedom in the games.

(Off topic: RC-AirSim deserves way higher than 30%.  It makes me wonder who played it, not test it, but actually played it.  How many people actually landed an airplane in that game and rated it down?  I bet it's close to zero.)

And I realize my last two posts, not including this one, almost contradict each other.  It shows that these issues are not so clear cut.

Big Daddio:

Adding quit to the menu on every game is not going to make your game or my game sell any more.

Maybe not, but it certainly will add to consumer experience which should be worth something.

I agree with you, Nick.  There's really no reason not to force people to implement this.  It's not hard to add, and it makes the quality higher, if only slightly.  The consumer's experience is important.