I think Community games was a more accurate name. Indie games says to me they are made by small independant but still commercial / professional development teams.

Craig Martin:

I think Community games was a more accurate name. Indie games says to me they are made by small independant but still commercial / professional development teams.

Were releasing products for sell on a service this makes all community games "commercial", and in theory the developers "professionals" though that does seem to break down.

I would bet my next quarters sales that Microsoft ran this name change through a few focus groups.

Good deal, I am glad to see things changing, now perhaps they will promote us more, push a little traffic our way.

I agree that this name change has probably been put through its paces on a consumer level, through focus groups hopefully and what not. My only concern, since this was released to us first, is for the partners who have a particular buy in to the product that is community games. Does this mean that Microsoft is trying to push more main stream developers towards XBLA instead of XBIG? If so I imagine this could impact some partners who are hoping to advertise through community games to sell their product when more main stream groups have taken the step to make 360 or arcade games.

On a much more personal scale. I think I'd rather be indie; makes me feel cooler.

I think it is much better because in usage it is going to be shortened to "xbox indie" e.g. "Check it out on xbox indie" which is much clearer and quicker to say then "xbox live community games" which really couldn't be shortened and more than "xbox community games".  Now it just needs a cool logo.

Nick Gravelyn:

XBLCGs are (on average) pretty bad. Now gamers might expect higher quality. Yet nothing in changing a name inherently raises game values. So I fear the name change will cause greater disappointment when people expect more but get the same games that, today, they don't think are very good.

I don't think people would have more positive feelings about XBIG if it were renamed 'Xbox App Dumpster', even if that were a more fitting title. I suspect that people already know, in the back of their mind, that independent stuff tends to vary wildly in quality, because it doesn't go through the 'big-name producer' filter. The addition of a user ratings system is a filter though; it'll be alot easier to look past the rough in order to find the diamond, which will cause people to see Xbox Indies in a better light, even if the average game is pretty bad.

I think with the name change, it could do with a bit more exposure in the Spotlight section, or even when you highlight Game Marketplace. Even if it's the last item in the list, just something like "Check out the newest indie games".

Nick Gravelyn:

Argi Baltzi:

Indie Games sound a lot more profesional and should raise expectations of consumers.

That's actually the problem I see. XBLCGs are (on average) pretty bad. Now gamers might expect higher quality. Yet nothing in changing a name inherently raises game values. So I fear the name change will cause greater disappointment when people expect more but get the same games that, today, they don't think are very good.
...
If the quality of the games doesn't increase, the name change is not going to help in any substantial fashion. We need to show those TIGSource and Kotaku naysayers that we can produce quality games worthy of their "indie" title.

I agree.

But...

Here is a short version of the following post:
Yes, to some gamers it may mean quality should be better, but to many I'm sure they will realize that "Indie Games" is like every other Indie scene.  Whether it's Independant Movies, Music, or what have you...there is good and there is bad, and there are people out there who will find diamonds in the rough.

Here is a more detailed explanation (if you care to read it):
Community games did spawn an "Indie scene".  Just like with music, where you had aficionados scouring record crates in record stores to find diamonds in the rough so that they could share it with the World, you had gamers playing through community games finding the good stuff to share it with the World.  Sites like yours, XNAratings.com, XNPlay, and XNARoundup are examples of these.

The problem I found was that while we had people like yourselves doing your part to help find diamonds in the rough, there weren't a lot of people interested in what you had to say.  This is because they didn't really understand what you were looking for.  When NicktheDude starts his episodes with "We find the best Community Games on the Xbox", it really doesn't mean a lot to people.  When you see a thread on large gaming forums that says "Xbox Community Games" it just doesn't excite people.

The term Indie has a very positive connotation with it right now, but it doesn't necessarily mean good music/bands/whatever.  It means a scene where you have to find the diamonds in the rough.  So I think with the name change, people will realize that not every game will be good.  The biggest benefit though, is that they will be far more open to what you, NicktheDude, the guys at XNPlay, Jigsaw hc (the guy behind XNA/XBLARatings) have to say.

I have to say, "XboxIndie.com" sounds faaar more enticing than "xblcg.info".  People saying that they "played and found some great Xbox Indie games" is waay more enticing than "I found a great Xbox Community Games". 

So I think that even if the great/crap ratio remains the same...people will still be drawn to the service and to what people like yourself (with what you have found or facilitated through user reviews) have to say. 

As everyone can see, I welcome this change. 

Another point I want to make is that it sends a message to us game makers.  The term "Community Game developer" doesn't hold a lot of meaning, and it could be that some developers don't see themselves as needing to hold themselves to any standard.  On the other hand, "Indie Game developer" puts a bit more pressure on people because that term (in the scope of gaming) is associated with great titles like Pixeljunk's stuff on PSN and Braid/N+ on XBLA.  So it might change things to a certain degree from that aspect.  People may take a bit more pride in what they are doing.

Nice post nrXic, I'm converted :D

nrXic, you summed up everything I wanted to say nicely, thanks for saving me some typing.

I don't know if anyone got the wrong impression, but I never had a problem with the name change. I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I'm simply reinforcing my long held idea that no matter what they call the channel, there's still a need for developers, reviewers, and testers to do a better job so we can provide better content or else "Community Game" or "Indie Game" we'll still be ignored as the crap pile of Xbox LIVE. That's all that post was getting at.

Nick, I spent a bit of time reading the news websites(glorified blogs) and an overwhelming majority of the comments were basically saying how 99% percent of all of the Community Games are crap.

Granted, most of us only think 85% of them are, but the perception people have of us is not good.

I'm starting to think it really doesn't matter what the XNA team does to market us...we haven't held up our end of the bargain as developers.

I think user ratings will help but we have to step it up people and start putting out some better games and take more pride in what we put out on the service.

Barkers Crest:

Nick, I spent a bit of time reading the news websites(glorified blogs) and an overwhelming majority of the comments were basically saying how 99% percent of all of the Community Games are crap.

Granted, most of us only think 85% of them are, but the perception people have of us is not good.

I'm starting to think it really doesn't matter what the XNA team does to market us...we haven't held up our end of the bargain as developers.

I think user ratings will help but we have to step it up people and start putting out some better games and take more pride in what we put out on the service.

Exactly. Developers are ultimately responsible for whether or not the channel succeeds.

Aztec:

who was asking for the name change from xblcg to xblig?

Me.

I suggested it in the first post: http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/29584/166425.aspx 

*sigh*... the more time I spend discussing this on TigSource the more sarcastic my posts get there...

Here's the thing, and I agree that a name change won't mean much without a general opinion shift of the service to go with it from consumers. The problem is there's been nothing as far as I'm concerned that has been able to take any "marketing muscle" that Microsoft or even other blogs/sites can provide. We still haven't had a Braid, a World of Goo, or a Castle Crashers. There was always talk about "if your game is good on XBLCG, you may get upgraded to XBLA by Microsoft!" but we haven't seen that really happen. Some call Dead Samurai that case, but that was a stipulation of a contest, and Dead Samurai never started on XBLCG. Some games have gotten a lot of press, but still aren't really at that "level" that we see in truly inspirational games. I don't think anyone will take notice unless there is a title like that on the service. Sure some games on XBLCG are better than some games on XBLA, but to me that moreso says "yes there are a lot of mediocre games on XBLA as well" rather than "yes XBLCG has some can't miss games".

JasonD:

Aztec:

who was asking for the name change from xblcg to xblig?

Me.

I suggested it in the first post: http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/29584/166425.aspx 

Well congrats on getting the change then.
I don't really mind that much either way, I just hope it helps the community in the long run.

Nick Gravelyn:

I don't know if anyone got the wrong impression, but I never had a problem with the name change. I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I'm simply reinforcing my long held idea that no matter what they call the channel, there's still a need for developers, reviewers, and testers to do a better job so we can provide better content or else "Community Game" or "Indie Game" we'll still be ignored as the crap pile of Xbox LIVE. That's all that post was getting at.

I apologize if my post implied that...reading it again it seems like I'm disagreeing with you when in reality I agree with you.  I just wanted to mention that along with your correct assertion that some gamers will expect higher quality, that there are others that understand that Indie may mean good and bad games.

And you are right again when you say that the success of this service is all up to developers.  If developers keep cranking out quality titles, who knows, maybe MS would mention this service during their next E3 presentation, giving it even more exposure.  They can't do that until we deliver. 

I have to say that it's great to see MS taking an interest in this service to the point where they considered a name change.  They could have let CG be what it is and leave it to it's own devices.  But the addition of IGN.com picks, as well as this name change, tells me that MS wants to see us succeed on a number of levels, including financial.  Of course, they can't invest the money and time to advertise it more than other services like XBLA, that's understandable.  But these constant tweaks to this Community Games service tell us that they haven't forgotten us.  MS could have easily said, "it's a brand new thing...let's just observe it for a year or two and make necessary changes".  It's only been 6 months and it seems that some important steps towards more exposure have been taken.  Yes, I agree that MS could be doing some minor things to make things even better, but this rename is a good rebranding move with large consequences and ramifications.

I hope I don't sound like I'm sucking up to MS...but I think MS has done a commendable job thus far with something so new and is doing a decent job navigating uncharted waters. 

Aztec:

JasonD:

Aztec:

who was asking for the name change from xblcg to xblig?

Me.

I suggested it in the first post: http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/29584/166425.aspx 

Well congrats on getting the change then.
I don't really mind that much either way, I just hope it helps the community in the long run.

Thank you.

Please read through my thread that suggested it; it raises many benefits that Microsoft likely agreed with, as they renamed the entire service based on this thread's suggestions.

JasonD:

as they renamed the entire service based on this thread's suggestions.

Really? You seriously think that Microsoft marketing dept made that huge change becuase of a forum thread?

The ZMan:

JasonD:

as they renamed the entire service based on this thread's suggestions.

Really? You seriously think that Microsoft marketing dept made that huge change becuase of a forum thread?

Yeah, I guess you're right. We're just a bunch of trolls anyway. So what do we know?

Tommy McClain

I think it was a great idea, and there's a good chance that Microsoft even read it...  But thats just not how it works guys... you were obviously thinking the same thing as a bunch of marketing people and some customer surveys and some industry focus groups...

Though credit due - many of you belived Microsoft would/could change the name when I would have bet you all lots of beer they wouldn't change a brand that quickly and soon - you were right there and the other MVPs and I were wrong. But the match in name... coincidence..

The ZMan:

JasonD:

as they renamed the entire service based on this thread's suggestions.

Really? You seriously think that Microsoft marketing dept made that huge change because of a forum thread?

It was the base of the decision; it's where it got started.  Their news letter explicitly states "You spoke and we listened!"  The XNA team reads our threads.  They even pipe up now and again ("never say never.")  My thread was the only thread regarding a name change, and I suggested "Indie Games" in the first post.  We all gave tons of reasons why it would be good, and why "Community Games" is bad.  It is most definitely the base to the renaming.  It's what got the ball rolling.

Is this so hard to believe?  Is it any different than having a Connect issue raising the idea?  In fact, it's better than Connect (aside from the trolling and lock threats) since it stimulates more discussion and more ideas than Connect.  All they had to do was read it.  And they did.  Kudos to them for listening us mere developers.

Please give credit where credit is due.

Yes it is hard to believe. I really really wish you could come and work a few months at Microsoft - it might make more sense why I'm saying what I did - its not becuase I don't want to give you credit. You said that they would change the name when I didn't think it a remote possibility - take all the credit you like for that. You even suggested the same name as they used... 100 gamer points for that...

If you really believe that the thread did more than confirm that some developers thought a name change was a good idea then I heartily congratulate you... I'll buy you a beer and a burger next time you are in Seattle.

I'm sure if we ever get achievements there will be 20 people in here all claiming credit for that one too...  god forbid they let non members review games - they'll have to make Darth an MVP for that one...

JasonD:

Please give credit where credit is due.

Just wow.

// EDIT : MISUNDERSTANDING
I thought this post was here to know what people think of the new name, if they like it or not and why (I personnally like both the former and the new), so I think this is a little off topic, isn't it ?