Hi guys,
I was asked to fire this question of the forums.

We busy wrapping up a shooter game using the avatars, just wanted to know whether the following would get rejected or not.
We are using weapons (i.e. AK 47's etc) to shoot enemy avatars (both Avatar Bots and Xbox LIVE players on the opposite team) (no civilians).
The avatars die but then respawn within a few seconds. (no blood is shown when you shoot a player and the avatar remains in tact at all times, just a puff of smoke is shown to represent a hit).

My question is would you reject the above game in peer review?
I've read the avatar guidelines but think some of the points can be interpreted in different ways, so rather have your feedback.
I've also emailed the Creators Club, and they suggested I post here.

It's an easy fail because the AK47 is copyrighted and trademarked to IZH, and you'd need a license!

• Violence which causes blood, gore, dismemberment, decapitation, maiming, or mutilation

Cartoon violence is allowed.  Violence is allowed as long as there is no blood, gore, dismemberment, decapitation, maiming, or mutilation.  An example of allowable injuries includes injuries that might befall an avatar in a sporting event such as American football.  Avatars can die temporarily to depict failure. 

My reading of that is that you are skating right on the OK side of the line so without more guidance from Microsoft I would pass it. The 'puff of smoke' might might imply maiming of somesort since it does imply real bullets.

Of course skating that close to the line means that others may feel differently and you might be treading into the territory where Microsoft pull it after becuase they simply don't feel avatar shooting is something they want. Personally I think you will be better off changing your ak47 for non lethal weapons... paintballs, rubber bullets that you see bounce off (and have a wide range of "Owww that stings" sound effects). Its always a risk.

Also remember that even if it passes peer review, Microsoft has the right to pull it if they think it's too far, regardless of what the peer review rules say; they are the ultimate authority and have that right.

I personally don't think you're going to fare well having avatars running around shooting each other with guns. I tend to think if you went with more cartoony weapons like lasers or something you might be better off than with real-world guns, but that's just because it would feel more like comic violence instead of real world violence.

Daaark:

It's an easy fail because the AK47 is copyrighted and trademarked to IZH, and you'd need a license!

That's not correct.  My business partner is a practicing attorney and former judge and I've had a conversation with him regarding this area.  Without going into legal advice, I can say you should talk with your attorney before you fail a game for perceived ip violations as your statement is not accurate.

Reggie

Reggie S:

Without going into legal advice, I can say you should talk with your attorney before you fail a game for perceived ip violations as your statement is not accurate.

Reviewers cannot pay attorneys before they review - otherwise nobodies game would get passed...

They should follow the rules we put in place when they suspect IP issues http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/17830.aspx. In this case they would
1. Raise it in the review thread (but not fail because they are not an attorney)
2. You would respond and say 'I have investigated and I believe I have permission' (or even better put it in the notes when you submit)
3. Then nobody else will raise the issue or fail (or they will be penalised). The developer then deals with any IP isues should they be incorrect.

The ZMan:

Reviewers cannot pay attorneys before they review - otherwise nobodies game would get passed...

I may not have been clear but I wasn't advocating reviewers have attorneys.  I was just saying that if they intend to fail a game for ip issues, they should understand those issues.  I would hope they would follow the rules you outlined but I know we've had cases where that hasn't happenned.  In my game, I have the same situation and I don't want to get a fail from people who've seen statements about this and don't think they have to ask.

SniperED007:

My question is would you reject the above game in peer review?

Assuming no other problems, I would pass it... though I can understand concerns others have and would also advise going with non-realistic guns.
I'm working on a avatar game myself... and plan on including swords, baseball bats, throwing stars, bombs, and other weapons that are very real... but also common in the realm of cartoon violence.  I'm going to be careful not to make the core of my gameplay depend on these items... just in case they don't go through.

AK47 is IZH's trademark and IP. You cannot use it without a proper license, just like you can't use a Porshe car, or Batman.

Unless you're a lawyer, don't post what can and can't be done. Any more and the posts will be deleted.

Couldn't the XBLA game Madballs Babo Invasion be used as a guide or an example of what MS might be willing to allow for avatar use even though it's not on XBLIG? The XBLIG avatar rules were pretty much derived from the AAA developer rules for avatar use are they not?

Tommy McClain

AzBat360:

Couldn't the XBLA game Madballs Babo Invasion be used as a guide or an example of what MS might be willing to allow for avatar use even though it's not on XBLIG? The XBLIG avatar rules were pretty much derived from the AAA developer rules for avatar use are they not?

Tommy McClain

No. The rules for non Indie games is not the same for Indie games. The indie game rules are more restrictive. Madballs shouldn't pass the Indie games Avatar Prohibited content list as the Avatar dimensions are altered

If you have to ask you probably shouldn't be doing it

Daaark:

AK47 is IZH's trademark and IP. You cannot use it without a proper license, just like you can't use a Porshe car, or Batman.

If a Developler claims he has permission, or he has consulted a lawayer and believes he is in the clear we givethem the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day its them who get the cease and desist or the lawsuit.

Pheel:

No. The rules for non Indie games is not the same for Indie games. The indie game rules are more restrictive. Madballs shouldn't pass the Indie games Avatar Prohibited content list as the Avatar dimensions are altered

If you have to ask you probably shouldn't be doing it

Great verbose reply Pheel. More of those kind from you or anybody else at MS could go long ways to making this community feel less isolated.

Tommy McClain

Huh? I don't feel isolated at all. Pheel and others from the XNA team are posting and answering questions here very frequently. And the responsiveness by which concerns from the community have been addressed (and often materialized into new features) is almost astonishing, in my opinion. XBLIG is only 9 months old and already we've had three major updates in that time. First the site update in March, then the update to XNA 3.1, then the second site update in July, and probably other stuff I missed right now - all of these updates addressing issues brought up by the community or implementing features the community was asking for.

Doc