Captain Comic:

It's a bit of a judgement call, but I think its a problem once you cross the line and try to trick people into buying the game.

The question then is: was the developer actually trying to trick people or was he just an inexperienced programmer trying to do an upsell screen like XBLA and those do? I personally would believe the latter.

Captain Comic:

Take another example, say I make a fighting game and tell the user to press "down-A-A" very quickly to shoot a fireball, but then when the fight begins I instead pop up the markeplace diaglog where that is the exact control sequence to buy the game. Would you call that upsell?

I have to imagine you'd stop hitting buttons once the Guide starts animating. Remember it doesn't pop up instantly and every transition takes time. It'd be really hard for you to press your way through without noticing.

I do agree that it's a dishonest way to try and sell the game, and in that scenario I would probably be more likely to agree with failing since it's just throwing it up in the middle of the game, but most (all?) trials on XBLA do an upsell when you exit. And since you're not encouraged to mash buttons when exiting, I don't think you can really say they were trying to trick anyone into buying the game.

Captain Comic:

I consider any display of the marketplace dialog where is isn't specifically requested by the user as crossing the line.

I agree that it is in poor taste, but I don't think it's a failable issue.

I downloaded and played it today and I still have my 80 MSpts :)

I will admit the "upsale" is a bit shady since you default right on "confirm download" definitely not something I would do.

It will be a real shame if people stop doing trials now because they have to be afraid of games trying to trick them into downloading.

Now I'm waiting for the game that just does:

while( IsTrialMode) { ShowMarketPlace() }

Captain Comic:

It will be a real shame if people stop doing trials now because they have to be afraid of games trying to trick them into downloading.

I really doubt that is going to happen because this one game (out of over 400) has a less than stellar method of doing the upsell screen.

Message deleted. I've decided to stay out of it.

Captain Comic:

Microsoft should provide a generic dialog on exiting the game that is similar to the one shown on timer expiration - a "do you want to purchase this indie game" screen that we have no control over, and then *that* screen takes you to marketplace.

But what if a gamer likes the game and wants to buy it? You're saying they should have to exit the game to buy it? That seems silly when every XBLA game I can purchase from the main menu (and some even the pause menu).

Captain Comic:

I think we're very close to showing we can't handle the responsibility on our own.

Because 0.25% of the games do this? Seriously I know it's crappy and I agree there, but just because of one bad experience doesn't mean every other game should be barred from having what is a really nice ability to make custom upsells and have options to buy the game without exiting.

Captain Comic:

Nick Gravelyn:

Captain Comic:

It will be a real shame if people stop doing trials now because they have to be afraid of games trying to trick them into downloading.

I really doubt that is going to happen because this one game (out of over 400) has a less than stellar method of doing the upsell screen.

I'm surprised you feel this way, because it really bothers me.

Seriously, though. It's one game. I'd agree if it were 50 or 100 games. But one game out of over 400. That means that there are 400+ games that don't do this. It's really a small issue that isn't nearly to a point where I think people are going to stop downloading trials.

Captain Comic:

I'm surprised you feel this way, because it really bothers me.

So you'll not buy the game and the developer will have lost a sale. That's his problem, but not a reason for rejection.

Nick Gravelyn:

Captain Comic:

I think we're very close to showing we can't handle the responsibility on our own.

Because 0.25% of the games do this? Seriously I know it's crappy and I agree there, but just because of one bad experience doesn't mean every other game should be barred from having what is a really nice ability to make custom upsells and have options to buy the game without exiting.

I didn't get that last message deleted fast enough :) .

My fear is that if we don't police ourselves, its going to get worse. I don't mind the strong sell. Games should be free to display 100 more "upsell" screens if they like before exiting. I just draw the line at pulling up the marketplace window. What Microsoft may consider is putting in one more confirmation screen between the Indie game ShowMarketplace() API call and the actual marketplace dialog. That would at least get our potential customers more than a single button press away from mistakenly spending points.

With Project Natal coming in, what we should do is make people do the Hokey Pokey to confirm purchases.

Captain Comic:

What Microsoft may consider is putting in one more confirmation screen between the Indie game ShowMarketplace() API call and the actual marketplace dialog. That would at least get our potential customers more than a single button press away from mistakenly spending points.

Feel free to submit that as a Connect issue.

Also instead of complaining in here if everyone went and playtested a game today then we could find people who use mean upsells and ask them nicely to change it. I find most people to be quite accommodating if you point out their game does something that other games do not and that it would be a reason some people won't buy the game. I bet this game had almost no playtesters and therefore nobody told the developer about it and then I bet he got a bunch of 'great game' 5 minute reviews from people looking for a kick back review... this one was easy to avoid... everyone go playtest a game NOW...

Jim Perry:

Captain Comic:

What Microsoft may consider is putting in one more confirmation screen between the Indie game ShowMarketplace() API call and the actual marketplace dialog. That would at least get our potential customers more than a single button press away from mistakenly spending points.

Feel free to submit that as a Connect issue.

I agree, we hashed the issue to bits. It's Microsoft's call now. If it gets any worse, I will simply avoid browsing Indie games, or I'll be sure to use an account with zero point balance. I refuse to walk a point/purchase minefield just to try out Indie titles, but I realize that's a personal choice. I don't pride myself on never pressing a single button by mistake.

The ZMan:

Also instead of complaining in here if everyone went and playtested a game today then we could find people who use mean upsells and ask them nicely to change it. I find most people to be quite accommodating if you point out their game does something that other games do not and that it would be a reason some people won't buy the game. I bet this game had almost no playtesters and therefore nobody told the developer about it and then I bet he got a bunch of 'great game' 5 minute reviews from people looking for a kick back review... this one was easy to avoid... everyone go playtest a game NOW...

I'll admit I was upset at first, but I agree with Nick in that I'm not sure it was intentional in this case. It's really a weakness in the gamer services API.  I think the right fix is to add more safegards to the framework, and not to worry about how each individual game handles the marketplace.

Since the last update, the guide is much faster.  Is it possible it was a controller glitch (ie., the controller thought you pressed the button when you didn't really press it) and it skipped by the screen so quickly that you never noticed?  I'm just curious what actually happened.

Another thought... has anyone posted in the UAV wars folder on xbox.com or in the peer review folder here. Maybe if you gve the developer the feedback they will alter the behaviour in the next release?

This was the first community game I reviewed after the beta trial and I am doubly ashamed I passed this one now, first off it crashed once on about level 4 and I could not reproduce it and didn't know that we could opt to not review a game. I utterly hate it when that happens, so I spent another half an hour trying to crash it and then I was getting the impression from this forum that we shouldn't fail because it might be just a one off or to do with our xbox, but really I shouldn't have been trying to second guess the Peer review system.

Regarding the issue, I don't see the logic.

If we can fail a game because it doesn't bring up the purchase screen and doesn't tell us that we don't have the correct privileges, why can't we fail a game that doesn't do what is says, doesn't conform to standards you would expect with XBLA and is exploitative of people's behaviour and the the dashboard's* for that matter.I think this is another harmful issue and I also I think it easily falls under game defects.

* I have many time gone too far out or done something I didn't mean to because of the sluggishness of the dashboard, this  is especially true for online enabled games like Street Fighter 4.

If you reviewed this then surely you saw the upsell screen and didn't think it was an issue at that point.

DarthCheesiest:

If we can fail a game because it doesn't bring up the purchase screen and doesn't tell us that we don't have the correct privileges,

You can only fail a game for these things if they cause a crash, hang (or apparant hang e.g. switches to a different controller)

DarthCheesiest:

 
why can't we fail a game that doesn't do what is says, doesn't conform to standards you would expect with XBLA and is exploitative of people's behaviour and the the dashboard's* for that matter.I think this is another harmful issue and I also I think it easily falls under game defects.

Becuase it does do what it says... if you cancel the marketplace screen it quits. Showing an upsell on exit is a fairly common thing on XBLA so you can't really call standards on this. The game does what the developer desired doesnt crash or hang and is clearly not a defect. Feel free to fail it if this is your opinion but its likley you would get pushback.

AS I've alluded above the correct thing is for people to playtest and raise these issues early on. Explain to the developer why this can be seen as exploitive and give them a chance to change it. Again... why are we arguing here when there's 40+ games you could be giving your opinons on?

I am really annoyed and went over the version I have to check, I think I must not have exited just used the Guide, what's worse, I was desperately trying to fail this one because of the random crash before, but there was no profile handling or memory card usage.

I don't think you get to the purchase screen directly from exit on XBLA games, sometimes tricksy upsell screens with buttons the wrong way round, but never directly to the dashboard, as far as I remember, probably wrong.

I have been writing a Beat'em Up and was wondering about having an in game character try to sell you the full game, I thought this would be funny, but thinking about it I have never seen this before and probably isn't allowed normally either and it would be so unexpected, it would probably lead to annoyance.

There is a long answer to why, but you are right it is better that I review a game instead.

johdex:

I tried to reproduce the bug, but failed. Even pressing the A button a second time after quitting and before the dialog popped up did not trigger an accidental buy.

The only plausible scenario I can come up with for this is a GC pause. Since the Guide seems to render from within the game's thread, if your game pauses due to GC, the guide's rendering does too. I can imagine a case where a GC pause occurs right as the Marketplace window opens, so the player is pressing A but not seeing anything happen, despite the fact that the Guide is actually "active" and responding to input. GC pauses are pretty common so this isn't far-fetched. However, I would expect that MS anticipated this sort of thing and made sure that you couldn't perform a purchase if the Guide wasn't already visible on-screen.

Regardless of how this happened to the OP, though, I would strongly advocate that this sort of behavior (popping up a Purchase prompt without the user requesting it) be made a reason to fail in Peer Review. It's deceptive and clearly prioritizes sales over customer satisfaction, which is going to be harmful to XBLIG as a platform and hurt players' perception of the service.

Kevin Gadd:

would strongly advocate that this sort of behavior (popping up a Purchase prompt without the user requesting it) be made a reason to fail in Peer Review. It's deceptive and clearly prioritizes sales over customer satisfaction, which is going to be harmful to XBLIG as a platform and hurt players' perception of the service.

Personally I think that all slideshow apps and all but the 1st massage app are also "harmful to XBLIG as a platform and hurt players' perception of the service." but it doesn't mean we can make up arbitrary fail reasons.

I think its a horrible thing to do and would turn me off any game that did it to the point of no purchase but it doesn't fall within any of the reasons Microsoft allow us to fail and would be one of those subjective things.

DarthCheesiest:

I have been writing a Beat'em Up and was wondering about having an in game character try to sell you the full game, I thought this would be funny, but thinking about it I have never seen this before and probably isn't allowed normally either and it would be so unexpected, it would probably lead to annoyance.

Actually the guy at the end of world 1 (I think) in Braid asks you to buy the game, so it's not completely unheard of to integrate it in the game. I personally think it's a nice touch as long as your game design allows it (i.e. if it awkwardly breaks belief in your game world, it might be a bad idea).

Oh no! I didn't remember, it must be old age getting to me and I'm only 30ish.

The ZMan:

Also instead of complaining in here if everyone went and playtested a game today then we could find people who use mean upsells and ask them nicely to change it. I find most people to be quite accommodating if you point out their game does something that other games do not and that it would be a reason some people won't buy the game. I bet this game had almost no playtesters and therefore nobody told the developer about it and then I bet he got a bunch of 'great game' 5 minute reviews from people looking for a kick back review... this one was easy to avoid... everyone go playtest a game NOW...

I'm putting this to the test as we speak.