Hi there,
I've been away from XNA for some months now and finally I'm back.

I have a question regarding Creators club membership which I just don't get (maybe I'm just plain stupid :-) )

The XNA FAQ says this:

Why don't I see the XNA Creators Club premium membership offered on Xbox LIVE Marketplace? If you don't see the XNA Creators Club Online subscription service, it could be you live in a country that doesn't offer that service currently. The list of countries that the XNA Creators Club is currently offered in is Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, United Kingdom, United States.

So, I can register for the creators club paid membership.

and this:

Developers from which countries will be able to sell their games at launch? Creators Club Premium members in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, and the United States will be able to sell their games. We'll be adding support for other regions later in 2009 and beyond but these are the only countries where XNA is enabled to pay their residents.

In which regions will Xbox LIVE Indie Games be available for purchase this holiday? Consumers in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Sweden, Singapore and Spain will be able to download Xbox LIVE Indie Games for purchase at launch. We'll be adding support for other regions later in 2009 and beyond.

So I can neither submit a game nor download community games from Belgium even though I can register for the CG service? Why on earth would I want to do that? Because it is of no use to me, I registered with DBP to get a trial membership just so I could develop for the Xbox. But in the end, for me, there is no reason to buy a CG membership as I wouldn't be able to do anything else than I can with my trial membership, or is there?

Please someone shed some light on this mystery.

Thanks

Rizman:

So I can neither submit a game nor download community games from Belgium even though I can register for the CG service? Why on earth would I want to do that? Because it is of no use to me, I registered with DBP to get a trial membership just so I could develop for the Xbox. But in the end, for me, there is no reason to buy a CG membership as I wouldn't be able to do anything else than I can with my trial membership, or is there?

It depends. Many people like developing games for the Xbox for the fun of it. Others may be doing it as a proof of concept to help sell the game idea to a publisher. There are lots of reasons why people would want to continue to develop against the Xbox

Creators club memberships were available before XBLIG was available. It simply means you can develop games for the 360.. maybe with a hope that one day it will come to Belgium.

SInce you are not in a country where you can submit games you are right that its probably not worth it. You will be able to access the few bits of premium content and get access to some licensed tools (http://creators.xna.com/en-US/partners) and you ill be able to be part of the community by reviewing games.

BTW - purchasing games has nothing to do with CC membership. Anyone with an xbox in those countries can buy them.

The ZMan:

Creators club memberships were available before XBLIG was available. It simply means you can develop games for the 360.. maybe with a hope that one day it will come to Belgium.

SInce you are not in a country where you can submit games you are right that its probably not worth it. You will be able to access the few bits of premium content and get access to some licensed tools (http://creators.xna.com/en-US/partners) and you ill be able to be part of the community by reviewing games.

Oh yeah, I noticed that it is now called Indie games.

So if I get this right, from Belgium I can:
Subscribe for a membership so I can develop games on the 360 --> I can already do that with the trial membership I got from DBP.
I cannot submit games, nor review games, nor download them?

BTW - purchasing games has nothing to do with CC membership. Anyone with an xbox in those countries can buy them.

Just to be clear: You mean, if I live in a country where I can submit games, anyone from this country can download them? Even without a membership. Is that correct? As I cannot submit from Belgium, I can't download Indie games either? That's really sad as I'd like to try all those great games you guys make.

So here comes my next question (and please notify me if I shouldn't ask this on the forums and I will delete it):
Can I register a new Xbox Live account and specify that I live in the UK, thus enabling - for that account - the Indie games service? I guess that would allow me to download the games, submit and review them. Only problem would be for payment if I ever submit I game. I guess that won't work. But it should be OK just so I can download Indie games, wouldn't it?

Rizman:

Just to be clear: You mean, if I live in a country where I can submit games, anyone from this country can download them? Even without a membership. Is that correct? As I cannot submit from Belgium, I can't download Indie games either?

The only thing that's needed to download games is access to Xbox Live. As long as your country has that you're good.

Rizman:

Can I register a new Xbox Live account and specify that I live in the UK, thus enabling - for that account - the Indie games service?

You could, but it would be going against the rules so I don't recommend it.

Jim Perry:

The only thing that's needed to download games is access to Xbox Live. As long as your country has that you're good.

Really, because I don't seem to find an "Xbox Indie games" download section anywhere on the marketplace.
I also tried logging into Xbox.com and setting the locale to UK (in the upper left corner of the website). There I could find the Xbox Indie games section and search for games. However, when I tried enqueing the games into my 360 download queue, the system informed me that these downloads are not available in my region (which I expected btw).
When switching back the locale to Belgium no Xbox Indie Games section showed up. So I figure that even though Xbox Live is available here, Xbox Indie games are not.

Jim Perry:

Rizman:

Can I register a new Xbox Live account and specify that I live in the UK, thus enabling - for that account - the Indie games service?

You could, but it would be going against the rules so I don't recommend it.

That's what I thought. Thanks anyway.

Rizman:

When switching back the locale to Belgium no Xbox Indie Games section showed up. So I figure that even though Xbox Live is available here, Xbox Indie games are not.

Hmm, I didn't think that would be the case. :(

Jim Perry:

Hmm, I didn't think that would be the case. :(

Looks like it is, sadly :-( though I don't get why. I do understand that MS has to look into a lot of legal issues to allow submitting games from a given country (considering that they pay royalties to people). But I don't really see a problem with me downloading and paying them. I mean, I can buy MS Points to download game content from Marketplace, so why wouldn't I be able to download and pay for Indie games. I really see no difference from a customer point of view between e.g. Live Arcade games and Indie games.

Anyway, they must have their reasons. I'll just wait and hope for the best :-)

If anyone has more insights, I'll be happy to hear them.

I was trying (badly it seems) to say that creators club has nothing to do with purchasing.

to purchaseyour need to be in one of these countries:

In which regions will Xbox LIVE Indie Games be available for purchase this holiday? Consumers in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Sweden, Singapore and Spain will be able to download Xbox LIVE Indie Games for purchase at launch. We'll be adding support for other regions later in 2009 and beyond.

I don't know the reasons why but remember Indie games are considered unrated. So there may be issues with that sort of content (e.g. Australia!). Financial issues may come into it to.

As for working around the system... its possible but it may break terms of use for something so if you get caught there could be conseqences... http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/36780.aspx 

The ZMan:

I was trying (badly it seems) to say that creators club has nothing to do with purchasing.

to purchaseyour need to be in one of these countries:

In which regions will Xbox LIVE Indie Games be available for purchase this holiday? Consumers in the U.S., Canada, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Sweden, Singapore and Spain will be able to download Xbox LIVE Indie Games for purchase at launch. We'll be adding support for other regions later in 2009 and beyond.

Thanks for confirming this. At least now I know.

The ZMan:

I don't know the reasons why but remember Indie games are considered unrated. So there may be issues with that sort of content (e.g. Australia!). Financial issues may come into it to.

Didn't think of that, but that's quite plausible. Although Germany has a pretty strict rating system too and they are on the list. Probably there are some other intrinsics we mere mortals just don't get :-)

The ZMan:

As for working around the system... its possible but it may break terms of use for something so if you get caught there could be conseqences... http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/36780.aspx 

I don't intend to do that, certainly not for submitting a game. The thought just came to me because I would really like to download them. But I do understand that the Terms of use could be violated...I know, no legal advice on the forums :-)

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Really dissappointing to see how restricted the access to Indie Games is. However, while waiting for Microsoft to learn about the existence of Finland, I was wondering if it was possible (and acceptable for Microsoft) for me and my team to publish our game on Indie games through a British "publisher". I'm guessing that the MS policy has to do more with handling money payments and taxes 'n stuff than any deep rooted hatred of Finnish game devs, so something like this would be ok?

Read Zman's post above!

Actually it happened once that Microsoft encouraged people from unsupported countries to contact a publisher (see here: http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/36506.aspx). Though it won't be that easy to find someone to handle your taxes and take responsibility for your assets, considering the fact that most games' profit is less than 1000$.

As Indie Games seem to be more of a hobbyist thing than professional, at least in terms of money involved, I was thinking about contacting a friend or a friend's friend or his friend or something, but the GamePro Labs thing seems intresting as well. Will look into it, thanks for the link AwesomeGamesStudio.

Well, I wouldn't put to much hope into GamePro Labs. I didn't notice any changes on their website during the last 6 months, the developer blogs look like dead since September. It posted the link just to say that MS isn't against having a publisher for your game.