I think the idea was that people did want to see them. If I hit save in Microsoft word I expect to see a file. Likewise if I hit save in Halo I expect to see what it saved somewhere.

Back in the good old days (when you were still in 3rd grade!) most games saved the save file to some random place or as you said before the app directory. You never knew where to back them up from. So you rebuilt your machine and you lost all your progress. Uninstall the app to upgrade to a new version and there goes all your progress.

So I kind of like the Saved games folder... of course I've never actually seen a game write to it! AppData is certainly a better place than program files/my game which causes all sorts of app compat issues.

The ZMan:

If I hit save in Microsoft word I expect to see a file. Likewise if I hit save in Halo I expect to see what it saved somewhere.

To me the difference is that in Word I chose where to save the file whereas Halo is just putting it where Halo wants.

The ZMan:

So I kind of like the Saved games folder... of course I've never actually seen a game write to it!

I agree. I definitely see the point that AppData isn't entirely suitable for saves, but I also don't like applications taking liberties with My Documents, a folder which I think should be entirely mine. I think my PC games (if I ever release any) will check for the Saved Games folder and use that if I can, otherwise I'll probably default to My Documents (with a game subfolder).

As far as packaging the game for release and a decent avenue for sales, I would suggest this site -  http://www.regnow.com/

Nick Gravelyn:

You could do a delayed PC launch.

Good point.  I hope Duality ZF sales don't drop after only a month or two.  I expect the online scoreboards to help maintain a desire to play the game.

Nick Gravelyn:

You can do a bit of encryption or other little tricks to hide data when transmitting, but ultimately it'd take little more than some patience, Reflector, and a packet sniffer to start cracking open the transmitted data.

I've already done this somewhat for the Xbox 360 version since I expect every hacker with an Xbox 360 already has some method of easily accessing the HD (which is just a guess).

Nick Gravelyn:

I feel like failing to do something different is a waste of the platform. For Xbox, P2P leaderboards is the best you can do. But to do P2P leaderboards on PC seems asinine considering how incredibly flawed the technique is on any platform, but especially when you are completely free to implement a real online leaderboard (which can easily be run on a basic $50/year web host using some ASP.NET or PHP web service).

I wouldn't be opposed to this as long as the programming was done properly.  It would have to be wrapped in a way that the core game components remain unchanged, much in the way multi-platform games are made (without XNA), such that the high level stuff is constant, and the low level OS-specific stuff can be changed (sort of like how drivers work).  Since a PC release is an after thought, it may not be so easy to do this.  This is the kind of thing that has to be designed properly from the get go.

Nick Gravelyn:

Xbox 360 scales output. So you create a 1280x720 backbuffer and you're good on any display. On PC it doesn't work that way at all.

Yup.  And this could be a mess.  Again, you'd need a wrapper of some kind to render the 1280x720 to the resolution the gamer wants, or allow your game to have multiple resolutions.  Duality ZF's engine natively allows this (as should any basic scroller engine), but the problem is the gameplay:  Since I don't allow enemies off screen to shoot, it changes the game if you change the resolution.  This is the only reason why I don't support 4:3 mode; not because it's hard to do, but because it changes the game. :(

Nick Gravelyn:

on PC, for games that have some heavier graphical effects, is to enable different levels of effects (think Off, Low, Medium, Full)

While I think it's great that games do this, and even have to do this to allow them to be played on all PCs, it changes the game.  People back in the day of Unreal Tournament would shut off all effects for the highest framerate but also for the visibility.  Duality ZF would become much easier to play without the particle effects. :/

Nick Gravelyn:

Too many indie games I've played save files in the directory where the exe is sitting.

Using the default XNA framework, it already saves data in a good location.  I don't believe it's App Data, but I think it's in the My Documents sub tree.  And it may matter if you're saving generic data or player profile data (I have NOT done the latter, so I am not sure).

Nick Gravelyn:

Work in social networking as it applies. You're on a PC so you can access the web. Try to work with Twitter or Facebook. Not only does this add some fun for your customers, it can act as viral marketing to attract new customers.

These are good ideas.  If anything, this thread has shown that a dual Xbox/PC release is something you should think about during the design phase so it can be programmed properly, without hacking things in at the last minute.  I am going to give this serious thought for my next game.

Kris Steele:

I think PC gamers aren't so jaded about pricing either and are willing to pay more for a good game, routinely paying $10 to $20 (and in some cases a lot more) for games.

I think that's a huge over-statement.  I would say PC gamers will occasionally pay $10-$20 for indie games.  Immortal Defence, which was made by people with plenty of indie connections and has received a good deal of positive press, sold a grand total of 121 copies the year it was released (2007, see http://studioeres.com/forums/index.php?topic=100.msg1235#msg1235).  Even games that sell well, like World of Goo, aren't necessarily the success stories they're made out to be.  The majority of WoG sales were actually WiiWare, not PC.  Same with Braid, which sold quite well on XBLA.  It's actually pretty rare for a $10-$20 indie game to do that well on PC.  A far, far greater number of them fail horribly.

I think that's another reason that XBLIG remains a good target.  For all the complaints that developers have had about the sales, the truth is that most, if not all, games released on XBLIG so far have had better sales than they would have if they were originally PC releases.

We're going to be releasing Dysnomia for Windows eventually, probably a couple of months after the 360 version. I've already figured out the installation and pre-req stuff using VS Setup and Deployment, so it's just a case of making the game play with mouse and keyboard and figuring out how to replicate the 360's upscaling/letterboxing for any PC resolution (has anyone done this BTW?). I agree with George's sentiments regarding charging for Windows versions of my games: I simply can't offer the right level of support to feel that charging is a good idea. Therefore the Windows version of Dysnomia will be released "as-is" and as freeware.

The ZMan:

In addition there is the Games For Winodws standards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_for_Windows (sorry I can't find the main doc - maybe you have to be n the program to see it).

Is this what you're looking for?

Nothing is stopping JForce, tee hee hee.

I'm definitely planning on releasing my game (Star Hammer) on PC. I've mostly done PC games in the past, this is my first attempt at a console game, actually.

The thing I'm grappling with is price. Due to the restrictions of pricing for XBLIG, and the amount of content I'm building, I'll be releasing Star Hammer in parts. The question I'm asking myself is do I do the same on PC? There are payment processing providers like regnow, plimus, etc, but they have various  pricing models that include taking a percentage, and/or a minimum fee. Say I release an instalment on XBLIG for 240 points - where there is a 30% cut to Microsoft - do I use the same price for PC, when the payment process might take have a minimum fee of $1.50 or $2 ? Or do I hold off until I've got a number of instalments done and release them as a pack at a higher price? Not sure yet....

While everyone is making very valid comments, I think making a PC release of a game should be for this reason.  A demonstration of your abilities.

PC releases have the potential to make a lot more money, however, as is with any market, this comes at the expense of being more difficult to develop, in many ways.

Really, it is hard to make the big money on smaller games.  And really, developing a well-made indie game will have it's biggest benefits, to you as a developer,  in that it will show someone how talented you are.  This means, the potential to get a nice paid job working as part of a team on a large scale project.  These days you just cannot make a high-profile game with a small team on low funding.  There is no way it can compete with the budgets and accumulated team experience that the big releases have.

Microsoft has done well with XBLIG in enabling small, independent developers to both showcase their works to a wide audience 'and' make a bit of revenue at the same time, depending on the success of the release.  If you are willing to spend the time thoroughly testing and developing a fully compatible PC release, this will show some people you are both capable of such a tedious and demanding release, and that you know what it takes to release something on PC.

Let's look at a worst-case scenario, perhaps not THE worst-case, but A worst-case.  You complete a PC release, and it is good, people like the game, you have tested it a fair bit but not completely.  For this reason, a fair few people start to find incompatibility problems.  If you know you have not thoroughly tested the game, you should make a disclaimer, it shows you are honest about your development and that you are willing to warn people;  This is where I have tested it (This is a system requirement statement, games should have this regardless).  I cannot guarantee it will run if you do not meet these requirements (Many high-profile releases have similar statements in their system requirements).

So.  Many people are now contacting you complaining about incompatibility issues.  You now have the option to try and rectify some of this through supporting your game, or you can leave it as is and suffer the reputation consequences.  Actually you have a third option, you could take the game off the PC market and spruik it to all the cashed up producers out there and try and sell them your game, or hunt down a partner to help you support the game.  If the game is good, chances are you will have a lot of people demanding support, and this will work in your favour for trying to promote the game to someone who can afford to support it and hence, reap the benefits.


If the price is small, and the game looks good, I would still purchase a game even tho I knew my system may not run it.  I have had fair warning, and because of that I have no legitimate complaint about false-advertising or misleading product disclaimers.  I remember buying Half Life 2, without reading the box label "Internet connection required to activate this game".  Hence when I installed it and found I had to lug my PC back to my folks place as I did not have an internet connection at that time, I felt kinda raw.  But I looked at the box and low and behold, I could have known this before buying the game.

You should not feel limited just because the majority of people blindly buy things without looking at the label.


My main point is, there should be 'nothing', absolutely nothing, stopping you from a PC release.  There are only hurdles, much more hurdles.  But you need to be prepared to jump these hurdles or learn how to jump these hurdles.  If you can do this, you have proved yourself as PC development material, and can take that proof as experience to someone who can make it worth your while.  If compatibility issues devestate your sales, then to a big development company this just means there is still massive amounts of untouched market that could be reached with a fully supported game.  Like I said before, if the game is good, this will show.

If you are not prepared to try jump these hurdles, then you are not PC development material.  You can still make great console games, and utilize your experience in that respect.

I hope I have not missed the point of this thread too much (that is, to try highlight all the obstacles involved in a PC release) but hope that I have raised some good points as to why you should try and attempt the more difficult market.

I do support heavily the notion of a delayed PC release, so as not to marr console release sales.  For me, when I see a game that is good on a console, I just cannot wait for the PC release, and am always saddened when it never comes.  Because I want to buy that game so I can tweak the graphics settings, or play it with my PC setup.  By PC setup I mean, I want to be able to play the game with all the EQ settings I have made through my soundcard, on my PC display, with my gaming mouse and keyboard, hear it through my PC surround speakers.  I know this may not relate to every PC setup, but these are the biggest reasons I like to get a console game that has been ported through to PC.

As others have said in more or less words, if you do not have the time or money to fully develop a PC release, then it will be a big risk to your reputation by chasing down the bigger market if it is not fully compatible.


It almost seems like someone should set up say, a charity type organisation, specifically designed to help small indie developers test PC compatibility and possibly also with an online marketplace for such games? After reading this thread, it sounds like it could be a real boon for small-time development projects.

Pete Man:

While everyone is making very valid comments......

The Shape of Games to Come:

I think that's another reason that XBLIG remains a good target.  For all the complaints that developers have had about the sales, the truth is that most, if not all, games released on XBLIG so far have had better sales than they would have if they were originally PC releases.

This is my opinion as well.  However I still am thinking about a PC release, with a running of the demo being the only way to buy it.

JasonD:

Duality ZF would become much easier to play without the particle effects. :/

I'm not a fan of ruining the original gameplay design by chopping down its graphics either.  Can you resample all the original textures to a higher resolution or sharpness?  Mainly so as to allow higher resolution settings in a scaled aspect, rather than increasing the view size of the screen (and hence possibly changing the original gameplan).  Can you add better particle effects for higher option settings?  What about in game Anti-aliasing support or disabling? 

I guess it is always up to you to determine whether this constitutes more work, how much more, and whether it is worthwhile.  But I think if you have a game where particle effects are crucial to gameplay you definately have a game worthy of future essentials.  You should weigh up the option of adding a whole new layer of graphics detail.  This may also benefit because the time taken to do so, will leave a greater gap between xbox and pc release, so you wont have the issue of a higher detail PC release diminishing the xbox version.  Adding support for some in game hardware settings like anti-aliasing would give some PC variety, and hey, strict hardware requirements very quickly become the norm in the PC world.  It is also a selling point, and ensures scalability with future pc platforms.

JasonD:

Support costs for pirates.  PC indie game devs say the worst thing about piracy is not the money lost from people who wouldn't have bought it anyway, but the support costs for pirates which are 95% of their 'customers'.  That's 20x the customer base of the size who actually paid for and deserve support.

If you can organize a good registration system, why not support only those who have the courtesy to register?  Many pirates would not want to register their product, and if online distribution is your method, then you may easily be able to link or track sales to registration (even if it is not a traceable link, you may be able to weed out illegitimate copies through a registration questionaire about the purchase method of the game).  And then you could prioritize support for true customers.

Anyway just a few suggestions, I understand practicality issues are unique to every circumstance.

George Clingerman:

I don't have a QA staff or machines to test on enough video cards/configurations/OS's to even begin to think I could release a PC game for money and have any hope of it running and not crashing on all the various setups. I release all of my samples for free for PC and if I made a game, I would definitely consider releasing a free version of it for the PC. But I could never charge for something I couldn't verify.

That's about it for me. Payments are easy with things like paypal, and I already have websites for me it really is just that I wouldn't feel like a good human being selling something I couldn't test.

Well, I don't think that the complexity of XNA-based games requires too much QA today. Of course, there could be some (rare, I think) compatibility issues, but I don't think that performance would be a problem.
Actually, I believe that the QA needed for a game strictly depends on the amount of work needed for the game itself.
And of course, it also depends on the number of people who worked on it. If one man works on a game, he can put N errors/bugs in it. If 50 people work on the same project, the probability of bugs becomes 50*N, and so on.

For an Indie Games Channel on GFW Live I would be only concerned about code security. After all it's always managed code, very easy to "reverse-engineer" (and therefore to crack) and very difficult (if not impossible) to completely protect.
Unless one wants to release the game for free.
And still, there are cases in which I hate to let my code accessible by anyone. Games are usually that kind of cases.

You do realize that almost every pro game that's released is cracked, usually before release or within a day or so after it's released, so why are you worrying about Indie games?

Jim Perry:

You do realize that almost every pro game that's released is cracked, usually before release or within a day or so after it's released, so why are you worrying about Indie games?

Of course. But indepentent developers probably can't afford to face a high amount of piracy like the "pros" does.
And since cracking an Indie Game would be even easier than cracking normal titles, it could be even worse (imagine if the AppStore apps were easily crackable - I don't even know if they are - and think of what could have happened).

Of course I could be wrong, "only future will tell".

TheMyx:

And since cracking an Indie Game would be even easier than cracking normal titles, it could be even worse (imagine if the AppStore apps were easily crackable - I don't even know if they are - and think of what could have happened).

Actually people have been cracking and pirating App Store apps for a while now. You have to jailbreak your iPhone but there are sites out there with pirated App Store apps. Piracy is a fact of life in software development. Your best way to fight it is by giving them a great product at a great value and making it worth their money. Beyond that there is nothing you can do to stop the pirates.

TheMyx:

But indepentent developers probably can't afford to face a high amount of piracy like the "pros" does.

Depends on the developer. If they're not putting out any money up front (meaning they can do everything themselves) an Indie developer can afford more piracy than pro publishers who put out several million dollars before the first sale.

TheMyx:

And since cracking an Indie Game would be even easier than cracking normal titles, it could be even worse

Yes, it would be easier, but the people that pirate your game aren't going to be the ones cracking it. The people pirating the game would just download it from a torrent site. Given that almost every PC game released that's worth cracking has been cracked it doesn't really matter how easy or hard it is. There's no way to perfectly protect a game without totally annoying the player.

The estimated piracy rate for World of Goo was about 90%, and those guys seem to be doing all right.  It always comes back to the same thing whether you're an indie or a major - if you make a game that is good enough that people want to play it, as long as you haven't ridiculously over-budgeted you'll probably come out ahead.

Nick Gravelyn:

TheMyx:

And since cracking an Indie Game would be even easier than cracking normal titles, it could be even worse (imagine if the AppStore apps were easily crackable - I don't even know if they are - and think of what could have happened).

Actually people have been cracking and pirating App Store apps for a while now. You have to jailbreak your iPhone but there are sites out there with pirated App Store apps. Piracy is a fact of life in software development. Your best way to fight it is by giving them a great product at a great value and making it worth their money. Beyond that there is nothing you can do to stop the pirates.

That's too true.

Jim Perry:

Depends on the developer. If they're not putting out any money up front (meaning they can do everything themselves) an Indie developer can afford more piracy than pro publishers who put out several million dollars before the first sale.

Yes, that's a possibility, but there still would be a problem with Microsoft. (yes, I'm a troublemaker :P)
If you want to use their bandwidth and their servers, they obviously need their payback. Of course, the game could worth the effort, or there could be another way out.

Yes, it would be easier, but the people that pirate your game aren't going to be the ones cracking it. The people pirating the game would just download it from a torrent site. Given that almost every PC game released that's worth cracking has been cracked it doesn't really matter how easy or hard it is. There's no way to perfectly protect a game without totally annoying the player.

Yes, that's true, but anyway (and I repeat, that's only my opinion), the idea of having troubles with piracy in such a small business doesn't sound good to me.

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a PC release would eliminate that internet connectivity hassle present in the Xbox platform as in order for anyone to play an Indie Game they MUST be connected to Live to start it up, assuming they're using an unmodified console. Whereas on the PC this restriction would not be present and you could enjoy the game without being online.

If someone already mentioned this, then sorry, I did not catch it but nonetheless, I'll second that opinion.

r0xs:

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a PC release would eliminate that internet connectivity hassle present in the Xbox platform as in order for anyone to play an Indie Game they MUST be connected to Live to start it up, assuming they're using an unmodified console.

I've never understood the complaint about this. Why wouldn't you connect to Live automatically whenever the console is started?

Jim Perry:

r0xs:

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a PC release would eliminate that internet connectivity hassle present in the Xbox platform as in order for anyone to play an Indie Game they MUST be connected to Live to start it up, assuming they're using an unmodified console.

I've never understood the complaint about this. Why wouldn't you connect to Live automatically whenever the console is started?

Sometimes you don't have an internet connection. For instance when I go to my parent's house I might bring my Xbox if I'm going to be there for a long time. I don't have an Internet connection to use there, so I can't play any Indie games. There are also instances were my Internet is simply down. While both situations are somewhat rare, they do occur.

Kris Steele:

Sometimes you don't have an internet connection. For instance when I go to my parent's house I might bring my Xbox if I'm going to be there for a long time. I don't have an Internet connection to use there, so I can't play any Indie games. There are also instances were my Internet is simply down. While both situations are somewhat rare, they do occur.

So you take some single-player games. If it's a rare situation, I don't see the big deal.

Kris Steele:

Jim Perry:

r0xs:

I was surprised that no one mentioned that a PC release would eliminate that internet connectivity hassle present in the Xbox platform as in order for anyone to play an Indie Game they MUST be connected to Live to start it up, assuming they're using an unmodified console.

I've never understood the complaint about this. Why wouldn't you connect to Live automatically whenever the console is started?

Sometimes you don't have an internet connection. For instance when I go to my parent's house I might bring my Xbox if I'm going to be there for a long time. I don't have an Internet connection to use there, so I can't play any Indie games. There are also instances were my Internet is simply down. While both situations are somewhat rare, they do occur.

Exactly the problem I have.  It only takes one spot to make this annoying and I can think of at least three spots with family and friends who would love to see my game and I can not (and will not be able to) show it to them either because there's no Internet connection or it's too much of a bother to steal their existing one.