Shawn Hargreaves:

In other words, we are only doing IDE work to integrate the XNA Framework into the C# project system, and not currently supporting the project systems for any other languages. In the absence of this IDE work, you miss out on exactly two things:

• Content pipeline integration
• The ability to deploy and debug on Xbox 360
  

I totally understand that Microsoft does not want to do any work to help 3rd party compilers from hooking into the XNA framework, but is there scope for 3rd Parties to do that work themselves so that their compilers work with XNA allowing both Content pipeline integration and the ability to deploy and debug on Xbox 360?

If that is unclear I suppose what I'm asking is, will the normal IDEs  ( I'm not talking about Visual Studio Express here ), allow third parties to write plugins that facilitate the use of the content pipeline integration and/or the ability to deploy and debug on Xbox 360 just like the XNA team has done for C#?

Somersault:

I totally understand that Microsoft does not want to do any work to help 3rd party compilers from hooking into the XNA framework,

I wouldn't word that as "don't want to do any work", so much as "have lots of other work that we think is more important" :-)

Somersault:

but is there scope for 3rd Parties to do that work themselves so that their compilers work with XNA allowing both Content pipeline integration and the ability to deploy and debug on Xbox 360?

Sure, I don't see anything stopping anyone doing that. It's a non-trivial amount of work (extending VS at this kind of low level isn't exactly easy) but the VS SDK is available, and we're not using anything private or magical for our extensions, just writing code.

In the Express versions, we do rely on a magical package load key (the Express editions don't support loading arbitrary third party plugins) but in uplevel versions of VS, you can load whatever plugins you like, so the only hard part is filling in the code for those plugins.

Shaderboy:

Will all users be able to get access to the new networking API, or will we require a signed title with Microsoft?

The Networking API is available to everyone, however there are some extensions to the library to allow commercially signed games to get access to things like achievements which will require you so have a publishing agreement with Microsoft on both PC and/or 360.

One thing of interest that came up on the second day of the networking talk (i.e. NOT the one that was broadcast) is that the networking APIs will NOT be available in the XNA redist. So to run a networked game on 360 OR Windows using the XNA network library will require your end users to have Game Studio 2.0 installed (and therefore one of its dependencies like VS or C# express). In addition your end users will of course need an XBL gold account to play match making games and a creators club membership if they want to run on the 360.

I won't comment or speculate on why since I like being an MVP....

The ZMan:

I won't comment or speculate on why since I like being an MVP....

lol

Shawn Hargreaves:

In the absence of this IDE work, you miss out on exactly two things:

• Content pipeline integration
• The ability to deploy and debug on Xbox 360

You also lose the project templates and Starter Kits if I'm not mistaken.

The ZMan:

One thing of interest that came up on the second day of the networking talk (i.e. NOT the one that was broadcast) is that the networking APIs will NOT be available in the XNA redist. So to run a networked game on 360 OR Windows using the XNA network library will require your end users to have Game Studio 2.0 installed (and therefore one of its dependencies like VS or C# express). In addition your end users will of course need an XBL gold account to play match making games and a creators club membership if they want to run on the 360.

Ummmm, huh?!? :( So we're back to the restriction of having GS?

Machaira:

The ZMan:

One thing of interest that came up on the second day of the networking talk (i.e. NOT the one that was broadcast) is that the networking APIs will NOT be available in the XNA redist. So to run a networked game on 360 OR Windows using the XNA network library will require your end users to have Game Studio 2.0 installed (and therefore one of its dependencies like VS or C# express). In addition your end users will of course need an XBL gold account to play match making games and a creators club membership if they want to run on the 360.

Ummmm, huh?!? :( So we're back to the restriction of having GS?

Yes if you want to use networking. If you don't reference the networking assembly then the current rules still apply - your app will run for free against the redist on windows.

As I'm not an MVP I would like to voice my concerns about not including the networking stuff as part of the XNA redistribution on Windows. If I'm a gamer who has no idea about programming but just wants to play a really cool game with my friends, possibly even one I have bought, why in <insert deity>'s name should I have to bother downloading GSE 2.0, I just want to play a game for crying out loud. If the requirement to have GSE 2.0 sticks around, I think quite a few gamers who would probably try out a game on Windows, before buying it on Xbox Live, will be turned off the whole process.

Also what if you don't have an Xbox and therefore and Xbox Live account, does that mean on Windows you can't do match making?

If it's a timing issue, I'd rather have the XNA 2.0 release delayed just so that the Networking stuff is included as part of the redist.
If others agree, please make yourselves heard.

Shawn Hargreaves:

I wouldn't word that as "don't want to do any work", so much as "have lots of other work that we think is more important" :-)

That's what I meant, though I probably worded it badly.

Shawn Hargreaves:

Sure, I don't see anything stopping anyone doing that. It's a non-trivial amount of work (extending VS at this kind of low level isn't exactly easy) but the VS SDK is available, and we're not using anything private or magical for our extensions, just writing code.

In the Express versions, we do rely on a magical package load key (the Express editions don't support loading arbitrary third party plugins) but in uplevel versions of VS, you can load whatever plugins you like, so the only hard part is filling in the code for those plugins.

Excellent, thanks for the clarification. Is there documentation in the VS SDK that shows how one might go about doing it, or is it all a dark art?

Somersault:

Excellent, thanks for the clarification. Is there documentation in the VS SDK that shows how one might go about doing it, or is it all a dark art?

A bit of both...

There's actually quite a lot of documentation (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/vstudio/aa700819.aspx is probably a good place to start) but the term "black art" certainly still applies to some aspects of the process :-)

Somersault:

As I'm not an MVP I would like to voice my concerns about not including the networking stuff as part of the XNA redistribution on Windows. If I'm a gamer who has no idea about programming but just wants to play a really cool game with my friends, possibly even one I have bought, why in <insert deity>'s name should I have to bother downloading GSE 2.0, I just want to play a game for crying out loud. If the requirement to have GSE 2.0 sticks around, I think quite a few gamers who would probably try out a game on Windows, before buying it on Xbox Live, will be turned off the whole process.

It's an unfortunate thing, but I'm sure, like a non-GSE distribution model for Xbox, it's something that Microsoft is looking into.

Also what if you don't have an Xbox and therefore and Xbox Live account, does that mean on Windows you can't do match making?

You can sign up for a Windows Live account. They are actually one in the same. An Xbox Live account will work on Windows Live and vica versa. You pay $50 a year for both access points. Note that Windows Live does require Vista though.

If it's a timing issue, I'd rather have the XNA 2.0 release delayed just so that the Networking stuff is included as part of the redist.
If others agree, please make yourselves heard.

Rather than stir the masses in the forums, the best way to approach this is file a suggestion on the Connect site. People can vote up the suggestion if they find it important and then it will officially surface to Microsoft's radar.