I'm currently experimenting on a port of an existing Windows PC Adventure game.  There are no plans currently to release this to XBLIG, however to satisfy my own curiosity I'm wondering whether it would pass or fail peer review.

I would say that shows full buttocks so would be a fail.

I suspect that's since it looks like a 2d game which means a person can't walk around and look from different angles you could get the artist to redraw it so that it was more subtle and suggestive, or even have some strategically placed items in front of the relevant parts.

I would say that's ok.

edit: It looks like we have a difference of opinion though. Would the Venus de Milo get a fail? No according to the highlighted portion quoted, so I wouldn't think this would either.

This statue doesn't seem to apply to the exception of 'well recognised works of art'.... at least I didn't recognise it.

In general its always going to be a problem when you push up against the limits. You might fail, you will cause reviewers to argue and you might end up wasting the XNA teams time while they clarify the rules with their teams of lawyers.

There's several simple solutions to this that would leave your storyline intact and make this a no brainer so its probably best if you go that route. Stick a plant in front of it, or a sign saying 'this way to the uncensored art' ;-)

Jim Perry:

Would the Venus de Milo get a fail? No according to the highlighted portion quoted, so I wouldn't think this would either.

Notice what the rule says (change in emphasis mine):

Full or partial nudity exposing genitalia, buttocks, or full female breasts (including depictions on manga and cartoons, but excluding established and well-recognized works of art). Gameplay or end result should not be to reveal objectionable content nor drive a sexual reaction.

Venus de Milo is established and well recognized. This art is just a naked statue an artist drew. I would see this as a fail point for your game and would suggest you change the art or cover up the necessary parts as Zman suggested.

Guess it's my turn to be picky. The Venus de Milo would be ok, but a not well known statue just like it wouldn't be? How about some of Rodin's work? Very famous person, but some of his works might not be. Where does the "established and well-recognized" limit lie? That screenshot is less objectionable than the Venus IMO.

Yeah, the game could be changed to cover up the necessary parts, but I don't see the point.

I'm not personally offended; I'm just going by the rules. I personally don't see the point in having to have that in the game. Surely the game won't be comprimised by some strategic foliage or redrawing the statue to be less revealing.

Dude I'm British, the land of topless ladies in the newspaper... personally I don't see why we have rules about buttocks and boobs at all - I think blowing peoples heads off is much more scary myself - but I didn't write the rules. The rules say no buttocks and I see buttocks...

Now if he actually put the Venus De Milo there then we would be ok - that would be another good solution. I don't think it would match the art style though.

My reading of the 'well recognised' part is so that you could make an app called 'Who painted this' and use original works of art in the game. The idea being is they are 'classic' works of art rather than something your artist drew then its can be for education and not just titillation. Of course that definition is typically vague too so yes I have no idea how to define it.

Having to deal with a similar issue myself, I would probably say that example is a fail.  It is not an established piece (although very much influenced by such), and the proportions are quite obviously meant to arouse.

The ZMan:

Now if he actually put the Venus De Milo there then we would be ok - that would be another good solution.

And that's what I don't get. If it's an obvious "classic work of art" style it should be fine. The "established and well-recognized" shouldn't be the limitation. No "classic" work of art that I know of fits the last sentence in what was quoted and I don't see the screenshot fitting it either.

Maybe if MS had let some of us provide feedback on the rules before they went into effect..... (hint, hint) :D

It appears that the general consensus is that it would fail peer review, due to the wording of the rules.  Thanks for the input.

If the rules said 'classic work of art STYLE' then can you imagine the debates... we would all have to be art critics to determine which naked ladies were in a classical style and which ones were not.

Then I'd have to write an FAQ called "Why you cannot give artistic advice in the forums" and there would be connect issues asking for the rules to be clarified in the case of if Pixel man is actually pornographic in a minimalist style

I like a nice granite bottom as much as the next guy ;-) but this is one of those cases that its just not worth pushing the rules when its trivial to solve in a different way. Or go for it and risk the game failing, or being pulled after the fact.

/me goes off to work on a picture viewer app of famous nude statues

:D

Jim Perry:

/me goes off to work on a picture viewer app of famous nude statues

:D

... with built in massage features.

Ahhh, yes, can't forget that!

Nude slideshows with rumble?  Hawt.

One final thing I'd add, is that some common sense needs to be added.  That image above is cartoony and is placed in a way that draws attention to itself, and as such I am thinking is from a comedic or light-hearted setting.  It's pretty obvious what the intended audience would think of that. Having drawn hundreds of nude models, I think there is a pretty thin line between what's artistic and pornographic.

One appropriate example would be a nude statue in a photorealistic point-and-click adventure that takes place in Italy.  Something in the background that is meant to enhance the setting, rather than be the center of attention itself.

Of course, I'm not an expert as to how the ESRB would rate under those circumstances.  Gamers aren't the most mature bunch.

I think this is one of those cases where the fact that MS has to write rules with a wide brush unfortunately catches a pretty inoffensive product.  But I really don't think there's much of a way around it without bringing a huge amount of subjectivity into things (and I'd actually say the "established work of art" exception is a bad idea for exactly that reason).  The rule is probably about as good as it could be given the circumstances.

I think this would be just as effective:

"Full or partial nudity exposing genitalia, buttocks, or full female breasts (including depictions of manga and cartoons, but excluding works of art). Gameplay or end result should not be to reveal objectionable content with the intent of creating a sexual reaction."


In the case of the game in question, it's obvious, to me anyway, that the image is a cartoony version of any other classic piece of art and the intent is not to create a sexual reaction. Anyone that has a sexual reaction from that image needs some serious therapy.

Whatever :D

Ahh this takes me back...I was a Sega man, where all the my friends were Nintendo fans. It was really fun to have a Genesis game draw controversy back then--Stormlord rocked some ***!
The original PC version here featured naked fairy statues/woman on cover:
(warning! Naked pixels!)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/stormlord/screenshots/gameShotId,11815/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/stormlord/screenshots/gameShotId,71634/

Several magazines covered it.. it was "a big deal" relatively speaking back then, and extremely *interesting* for this then-14-year-old to have the potential for naked chics in your console game. But they Sistine Chapeled all the girls.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/stormlord/screenshots/gameShotId,94035/
http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/stormlord/screenshots/gameShotId,94034/

Sadly Stormlord kinda sucked.
Pro Tip: Make your game your fun first, but if it's not, try to sneak *** in and let the media know!

(Razorsoft was also involved in the bloody Technocop, famous for exploding dudes when you shoot them:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga/techno-cop/screenshots/gameShotId,56010/)

EDIT:
Whoa.. brain.. melting.. post on censorship was censored... so meta. The top *** was a variation on the word "pornography" and the bottom *** was a variation on the word "breasts".

Hehe, I remember all the news surrounding Stormlord.  And yeah, it certainly didn't live up to the hype.

I'm of the camp that does not consider games to be 'art', but I don't consider films or books to be art either.  Which is why it's pretty difficult to get away with nudity in this medium.  Personally, I feel a good designer doesn't need it.

Wow... I'm offended that people would fail anything in that image for being offensive. If I was peer reviewing the game I would not bat an eyelid. Would that make me a bad reviewer?

Team Mango:

If I was peer reviewing the game I would not bat an eyelid. Would that make me a bad reviewer?

Yes - it suggests you are using your own rules rather than the ones Microsoft laid out.

There is no rules that says 'are you offended' or 'do you think other people would be offended'. The rule says

http://creators.xna.com/en-US/help/peerReviewStep21
"Full Nudity
Full or partial nudity exposing genitalia, buttocks, or full female breasts (including depictions on manga and cartoons, but excluding established and well-recognized works of art). Gameplay or end result should not be to reveal objectionable content nor drive a sexual reaction."

Whether you agree or not the statue shows buttocks....

In this case it seems crazy to me too but remember Microsoft need a simple, esy to follow set of rules that works for ALL countries around the world without too many exceptions that would be hard to remember and follow. This means that sometimes the rule seems too much for some individuals but thats how the system works.

It seems like it'd be a pretty easy to rework the art into a parody of classical Aphrodite statues.   If that sort of cultural parody fits in the game.