Just to confirm:

The 800 point option for new games or updates for existing games is no longer available.

All 200 point games are now set to 80 points. The changes are currently pushing out to the Xbox LIVE marketplace.

It will be interesting to see how all those 200point games changing to 80points will change the distributions. For example, Miner Dig Deep was 200 points, so when it goes to 80 it should spike a lot. Maybe even some older games at 200 points will jump higher on the list, hmm. Will be interesting I think :)

The Industry:

$5 is NOT a business model worth a year's effort (and perhaps the service isn't meant for it, though we hoped it was).

Then you shouldn't have taken that long. Depends on how well your game does, doesn't it.

The Industry:

XBLA time.

Yeah, good luck with that! :| Don't hold you breath waiting though.

The Industry:

Irrelevant now, but we're wondering if the price point is set before or after peer review.

Why does it matter? For the record, you set the price when you submit. Peer reviewers don't see the price however.

Then you shouldn't have taken that long.

The Industry:

$5 is NOT a business model worth a year's effort (and perhaps the service isn't meant for it, though we hoped it was)

Wow hasn't this been beaten into the ground enough yet? I wanted to say more but at this point it would just be trolling.

The Industry:

The hope is quality = success!

It isn't an equation, there are lots of AAA titles out there in XBLIG and a few of them had some success. Between these very few with an higher pricing model had a good income (if I recall... none of them if you look at games only)

and the correct equation should be fun = success ... quality is unimportant if the game isn't fun ("a game is supposed to be fun")

The Industry:

Then you shouldn't have taken that long.

Meetings with Microsoft reps a year ago said otherwise. We're not producing amateur content. 

Yeah, good luck with that! :| Don't hold you breath waiting though.

Already in touch.

Then why would you even have considered XBLIG?

The Industry:

We were trying to beat the $10 deadline (no matter anymore). Thanks.

You would have had to have submitted you game at least a month ago to get through the peer review process and get your game up for a couple of days of $10 sales. Your game would have automatically been scaled back in price yesterday.

Jim Perry:

You would have had to have submitted you game at least a month ago to get through the peer review process and get your game up for a couple of days of $10 sales. Your game would have automatically been scaled back in price yesterday.

No only 200MSP got scaled down. 800 MSP are fixed at 800 unless they do an update in which case they won't be able to choose 800 any more.

Honestly, now, the way I look at it is, "less work for me". My intention, at first, was to make a $10 game. But at $5, you're simply not going to add as much content. OK, whatever. It's probably for the best anyway. For XBLIG's I think the theme is "quick and simple". Still, I think quality does not have to be sacrificed.

Some of the cheaper games are of really high quality and have done well so there's definitely a market for high quality games without a correspondingly high price tag.

We'd like to see our future game on XBLA or an equivalent service. We wanted to test the waters in XBLI a year ago when the business model made sense for large productions. Since the price point changed we talked to Microsoft and they told us that the publishing process for our game would take around six months. We're privately financed and that sort of wait period wasn't an option. So we tried to race the clock (I think your evaluation's wrong Jim) but it didn't work out.

The Industry:

If only a few games were using $10, why was it cancelled? Were they scamming people or really terrible? Just curious. Thanks for the insight.

There was no reason specified in the announcement.

Rampant speculation suggested that maybe it was to ensure a differentiation between XBLIG and XBLA. But in reality nobody but Microsoft know.

The Industry:

As for $5, yes the community is a fan of cheaper games. Our marketing campaign is targeting non-XBLI users though - we're going out and dragging them back in. $10 is a lot cheaper than $60.

Consumers don't think that way though. For a download game, $10 is pushing the upper limit of acceptability for even high quality products.

Our gameplay clocks in at a few hours and is one of the more ambitious projects - $5 just feels painfully undervalued.

A few hours of gameplay isn't worth $10 unless you've got one of the most incredible game ever. There are many great XBLIGs for $1-$5 that offer a few hours of entertainment. The better $10 XBLA games offer many hours of entertainment - I've probably clocked in more time on Pac-Man: Championship Edition, Geometry Wars 2, and Defense Grid than I have on many full fledged retail RPGs!

Our thinking was that it's a whole lot more probable to hit a revenue mark with $10 than it is to double our conversion rate or reach twice as many bodies at $5. I'd love to be proven wrong though! (If anyone has any stats.)

It's really hard to say since there are so many factors that go into whether or not a game is a success. I will say that it looks like I MAED A GAM3 W1TH ZOMB1ES!!1 has made more money than any other XBLIG to date and that game is only $1.

If only a few games were using $10, why was it cancelled? Were they scamming people or really terrible? Just curious. Thanks for the insight.

A few hours of gameplay isn't worth $10 unless you've got one of the most incredible game ever.

I'd say most indie game developers don't market their games or do a poor job. It's understandable though - without a serious marketing budget, it can be difficult to make people pay attention to your game.

Personally, I think approaching pricing purely on a basis of what your game is worth is the wrong way to go about it. There are tons of games that are well worth their asking price that most people never buy because there are other games they want more. Similarly, there are several examples of big games making a ton of money from temporarily dropping their price tag to some insanely low price (like Bioshock for $5 on Steam last year or World of Goo for "make your own price" just recently) - who's to say they wouldn't have made more money in the long run if they had started out at a lower price.

In short, if your game is worth $10, you should probably be selling it for $3-$5 for the most success.

All valid points, thanks Rainbow. Damn would I love to get my hands on some sales trend data.

Hey Guys,

We are in the same situation.

College Lacrosse 2010 has accumulated 52k fans on Facebook, 80k YouTube views in two weeks, and has been sponsored by Inside Lacrosse, the biggest lacrosse magazine in the country.

The reason for my post is to express concern about the new pricing structure for Indie Games.

We have a very passionate fan base who would be willing to pay top dollar for this game. In my market research, 417 of 787 people said they would willing to pay $50 for "an independent lacrosse video game available for download"

I feel like Microsoft will be losing out on some decent cash by forcing us to sell $5 instead of $10.

We are scheduled to resubmit this Friday, October 30th. Any suggestions on the situation would be extremely appreciated.

Do we release for $5? Or invest more time and money in hopes of publishing on XBLA? What are the chances of MS seeing this and making an exception for ILCL2010?

Thanks in advance for your time.

- Carlo

Inside Lacrosse's CL2010 Facebook
Inside Lacrosse's CL2010 YouTube

Exception, especially by Friday... none. If they gave you an exception then they would have to give others the same.

XBLA would be your only choice right now. But its a long process to apply and get your game ready. e.g. DIshwasher took James over a year to finish and get through certification. You get leaderboards and acievements but you have to follow more complex and often more strict rules. Plus ratings boards around the world. ITs cost lots of $$$. Your best bet would be to find a publishing partner to do that..

The chances of them making an exception to the price on XBLIG is extremely low (I'd say 0% chance). You can definitely email them and ask, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If you feel your game is XBLA quality, there's definitely no harm in trying for that. Just note that you will be investing even more time in money into getting your game up to par for that platform. There's the $10,000 plus for the dev kit, then all the expense of getting it rated and all the extra development time it will take to get it in a state that it passes all of the super strict requirements of XBLA. The Dishwasher when it was released for Dream Build Play was in a state where it would have passed instantly if released on XBLIG, it took James two more years to get it ready for XBLA. The quality and features demanded by the two services are extremely different.

Another option is ignore the 360 release entirely and just doing a PC release. Then you're free to charge whatever you want. However there's always lots of risks in developing for a non-closed platform. Developing for the 360 is relatively easy because you can generally assume everyone's 360 is basically the same. You don't have that luxury with PC development and it adds a whole new level of hardware support and flexibility that will be required by your product. There are distributors such as Steam which have taken XNA games in the past so there still are popular distribution systems you could investigate going the PC route.

You really just have to decide what is right for you.

I personally have never felt XBLIG was the place for companies (or people taking out loans to start companies). It's a new system and process which hasn't been fully vetted and tested yet. The market isn't clear yet so any company/individual attempting to make a profit from this service is taking such incredible risks they must be thrill seekers. That doesn't mean it can't work for a company looking to make it big, just that they have to willing to assume those risks and realize they are gambling. For those of us not investing anything other than our time, the house is currently in our favor.

I'm sure none of that is very encouraging, I know that you took out some major loans to make this game and are feeling all kinds of pressure. Hopefully it all works out for you, but you're really going to have to sit down with a clear head and evaluate all your options. If you have that many fans, do you break even at 70 cents a sale if you even sell to 10% of them? 20% of them? Where's your break even point. Start looking at worst case scenarios. Evaluate the XBLIG, XBLA and PC releases. Decide what resources you have, how much time you have to pay off your loans and move from there. Might be a good idea to get someone with some better business sense to discuss this as well. Do you know how much money people typically make on XBLIG? I'm hoping you at least researched that before taking out a loan. But those are the kinds of questions you're going to need to know the answer to in making your decision.

Carlo Sunseri:

What are the chances of MS seeing this and making an exception for ILCL2010?

0, there are no exceptions.

Carlo Sunseri:

Do we release for $5?

Yes.

Carlo Sunseri:

Or invest more time and money in hopes of publishing on XBLA?

Since your chance of doing this is slim to none, I would stick with XBLIG.

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your suggestions.

"I personally have never felt XBLIG was the place for companies (or people taking out loans to start companies). It's a new system and process which hasn't been fully vetted and tested yet. The market isn't clear yet so any company/individual attempting to make a profit from this service is taking such incredible risks they must be thrill seekers."

I'm definitely not a thrill seeker, being the first outdoor lacrosse game to market was my reasoning. Also, when there was the option of charging $10 the risk seemed minimal.

"If you have that many fans, do you break even at 70 cents a sale if you even sell to 10% of them? 20% of them?"

.70 to 10% of my fans on 50k Facebook fans? Or 10% of the 500,000 people who play lacrosse?

"Do you know how much money people typically make on XBLIG? I'm hoping you at least researched that before taking out a loan."

I've done my best to stay up on the most popular thread on these forums "Share your sales numbers" and on the reports through gamasutra but have always thought that CL10 would gain a passionate group of followers.

Thanks again for your advice and all your contributions to the community.

Carlo

Hey. Thanks for the response.

Why are the chances of getting to XBLA slim to none? Haven't other Indie Games made it to XBLA?

Is it because you think that CL10 doesn't have the potential to reach the XBLA level?

Thanks again!

Carlo

No, there currently aren't any games that have been released for XBLIG that have been moved to XBLA. In fact I don't believe there's ever been an XNA game put into playtest even that's then later been released on XBLA. Currently there are only a few XNA games on XBLA. Schizoid was the first, it's created by an existing game development company. Then The Dishwasher (Dream Build Play winner), Blazing Birds (Dream Build Play winner), Yo Ho Kablamo (Dream Build Play winner) and Rocket Riot (also created by an existing game development company). (Did I miss any?)

It's not that it's not an option, just that with our knowledge of that market it's a very, very tough one to compete in and you're not competing against amateurs. Microsoft accepts a very, very limited number of XBLA each year and the waiting list is very, very long for even getting your game looked at.

Hi man,

you're going to take a huge risk and I really hope that your game breaks every record, but... consider that xblig is a strange place with strange market rules. I've seen cool/worderfull/AAA games and very well promoted doing nothing (or few hundreds dollars) because they were bad priced or because... I don't know because but they failed.
I've seen also weird things reach the top and make some decent money.

So...

The Industry:

ZOMb1ES (which is awesome!) is one of the few XBLI game's I've seen with a press release. We aren't underestimating the impact our own marketing will have on sales. What percentage of games would you say market?

sounds a bit disrespectful for the dozen of xblig developers that did good game with the best promotion they could and obtained no success.

If you search in the forum you will notice that every few week a developer says the exact things you're saying (poor marketing, I don't understand the lower pricing etc...) assuming that they have the right recipe; then they release their game doing their marketing magic and after few days they disappear from the top selling classifics (in the case they hit it).

I'm not saying your game sucks (it is really good indeed), I'm saying that you're taking an high risk and the forced 400mp pricing should be a good thing for you.

That said, good luck, I hope the best for your game!