Well, I gave up to get the updated 3.1 version from CCO so, after a good test on 3.0 I opted to buy the Pro versions of both 2D and 3D. The engines are worth the money and the value is quite correct, there is a good amount of background work in those two engines.

There are many flaws as well, first of all the docs: there aren't any. Having the Pro version you can dig the code and learn from there... no hope to get any help from Garage Games and the related Forums.

The physic in Torque is very basic, almost null, thus is quite important to get the Pro version (with the source code) to integrate an external physic's manager.

2D Builder is a well rouded editor, clearly built on many years of work: it's stable and interacts very well with the VS2008 environment. Not the same can be said about the 3D Builder: it crashes really often, mostly interacting with VS2008. The GUI system looks interesting, but there isn't a single line of docs about it and not an editor, so it's very hard to get a grip on it.

My next game will be TX powered, so it'll be out sooner than I planned because of the amount of work already done in TX.

I hope the above info may be helpful to others.

Cheers,
Pino

Thanks Pino. I was thinking about switching over to Torque to save time but I'm still on the fence. I keep hearing negative things about Torque which keeps me from just getting it right now. What I want to know is if I will be able to figure out all of their custom non-documented classes, methods, interfaces, etc in less time than it would take me to built my own version.

Hey Pino I thought I saw your face in the GG forums. If you have any questions drop me a line, I have been a regular there for quite a while now.

I can say I have had my problems with TX, however once I got through it I have quite a library of stuff that is pretty cool. I have to say that I am not a hard core coder type. I am from flash etc, mostly just making interface prototypes. I have found torque to be really pretty invaluable, I can focus more on game and art etc and not sweat the code.

Rantis:

Thanks Pino. I was thinking about switching over to Torque to save time but I'm still on the fence. I keep hearing negative things about Torque which keeps me from just getting it right now. What I want to know is if I will be able to figure out all of their custom non-documented classes, methods, interfaces, etc in less time than it would take me to built my own version.

Actually I don't know if there is any documented class :D TX docs are just like Microsoft's docs about VS Extensibility Packages: just a list of references without any explanation and a few introductory pagese which leaves the reader with more question than he had before reading it :)

In addition to that the version 3.1 has a few flaws so if you don't have the source code (the Pro version) you cannot actually release a viable game. There are changes to do to the InputMap class that are actually unavoidable. The "value for money" is there anyway: the engine works fine and surely worth the money. You have to be prepared to dig the starter kits and the samples to get a grip on it, self training on the field instead of manuals and docs :) I'll be around (and Henry as well) to help out others.

Big Daddio:

Hey Pino I thought I saw your face in the GG forums. If you have any questions drop me a line, I have been a regular there for quite a while now.

Yep, I will: I'm posting there too some help here and there because I see that they have the habit not to answer to newbies (see my post there) :/ I'm there using my full name: Giuseppe De Francesco.

Cheers,
Pino

Hey, Pino...is there a reason you purchased both Pro versions (2D & 3D)?  Did you get any discount on the package?

I'm just curious...because I thought about buying both...but truth be told...I'm a lousy artist at best...so the likelihood that I'll be doing anything in 3D any time soon is pretty slim.  So if I buy anything...it will most likely be the 2D package.

Are you working on both 2D and 3D projects?  Do you have a specific game in mind that you are building/prototyping?

Just curious why you'd opt for a $400 wallet dent.  =)

Also...are there any appreciable feature upgrades between the free Creators Club version and the Pro version, or is it just the source code access that you pay for?

Thanks and good luck with your purchase...
--Chapel

Hi Chapel,

no discounts :/ still the content is fully worth the price. I've been working on my own engine (over week-ends) in the last few months and converting my time in money I've spent on my engine more than 2,000$ to get only one component really complete: the Input Manager. I also have a multithreaded Game Manager but I'm not happy with it, and I've no Rendering Engine at all... to get a result similar to TX content I've to spend more than 30,000$ (in time/value) and it'll be my product... the product of a very good Software Architect all right... but a perfect newbie in game development :) thus 400$ to get a fully tested and funcional game engine (with source code) is an excellent choice. I'm taking this XBLIG biz quite seriously, so I'm investing time and money in it because I'm aiming at the status of Xbox authorized developer.

I've 4 game project ongoing now, in 4 different game genres: one of them is a 3D game. They all are pilot projects, just to test the marketplace and my understanding of it (just like my Astro Match3 game). Having switched to TX has given me plenty of time to focus on the AI and the graphic presentation: it boosted my productivity by a 300% at least. BTW: I started the 3D project with XSI but the size of the resulting binary is too big, so I had to revert to XNA alone: TX 3D has been a real relieve even having TXB3D crashing often!

To actually use TX you need the source code because:
1) TX for XNA GS 3.1 is not yet available to CC members;
2) Even if it were available, the InputMap class has a few flaws that will have the game failed in peer review, so you need the source to make a few small extensions;
3) The physics in TX is very basic, so to integrate a better physics engine you need the source code.
4) The Platformer Starter Kit (30$) is a very good one, but without the source code it cannot be used.

My overall experience till now is technically very good. I've to say that I did manage to get acquainted with it and be productive in two weeks even without docs (its docs is just a list of methods and properties... useless!) only thanks to my software engineering knowledge (I've been on the field for 30 years now): IMO a young developer will have quite a headache lasting no less than a month or two because of the total lack of infos (also the samples are bad... mostly outdated). Still I'm positive that it worth the money and the headache.

Bottom line, my advice is: if you are just an amateur (not planning a real game biz) you can live without any game engine, otherwise you really need one and TX is the best one in relation to what you get out of your money to deploy on the Xbox 360.

Cheers,
Pino

Thanks, Pino...that is a very insightful post.

I'm also a software architect as a profession...but with about half of your professional experience (I've been at it for about 16 years).

I guess my main obstacle, is that I really can't afford to make significant investments in my Indie Games pursuits.  Mostly because I don't have enough time to dedicate to my game projects.  I've a pretty demanding professional life, a daughter in college, a son on his way to college, and a wife to boot.

So between work and family...I just can't find the time to justify the expense of a heavy pursuit in game development right now.

Good luck to you though...and thanks.

I purchased both 2D and 3d, I made more than triple my money back for both on my first 2d game. If I had written my own stuff from scratch I can guarentee my game would have been smaller, however I can also say I would not have done as much, they have lighting effects in 2d that are literally a click away. I'd also grab the Torque 2d book but order from amazon it's faster and cheaper. You can get the 2D engine for $150 alone. Having the source really helped me ALOT. I can even make some changes to the engine if I like on a per project basis. The Torque engine on the GG site has now had 2 updates beyond the free CC engine. I guess there is some sort of issue with passing a long list of things to be approved for the XNA free engine.

I have not found the forums to be hard on noobies, I can tell you I have answered tons of beginners questions and had my questions answered when I was a noob.

I use my real name on the Torque forums as well, Henry Shilling

; )

Hey Chapel,

so we're in the same boat :) I've a son in college, a daughter on her way to college (in 2 years) and the little one still in primary education... the wife busy to keep all of us fed and clothed, my work hugely demanding. That's exactly why I'm investing whole nights and week-ends in this business ;)

Cheers,
Pino

I think I may opt to purchase the 2D product because I do have a particular game in mind.

It's good to see some folks posting their thoughts on the Pro versions, and that the general feeling is positive.

My first Indie Game was a kind of race to the finish line.  I needed to get over the hump of writing my own game from title screen to credits.

I will most likely need "help" on my next project which is way more ambitious.  And if that help comes in the form of TorqueX 2D's source code, then so be it.  =)

Are either of you guys blogging your build efforts?  I think I might set up a developer blog when I start my next build...good to document progress and highlight any problems that arise and their solutions.

Thanks again for the info on Torque!
--Chapel

Chapel:

Are either of you guys blogging your build efforts?  I think I might set up a developer blog when I start my next build...good to document progress and highlight any problems that arise and their solutions.

Due to time issues I'm unable to blog as well :) From me you can expect help and answers throught the forums (here and on the TX one) for I make all the possible efforts to keep myself active in the community trying to givie back to the society at my best ;)

Cheers,
Pino

Chapel:

Are either of you guys blogging your build efforts?

I forgot to tell that actually I post my advancement updates on YouTube if this is of interest ;)

Cheers,
Pino

PinoEire:

Chapel:

Are either of you guys blogging your build efforts?

I forgot to tell that actually I post my advancement updates on YouTube if this is of interest ;)

Cheers,
Pino

Very cool, Pino...I'll take a look at this when I'm not at work.  :)

I don't know if it's worth creating a new thread for this, but there is a Garage Games employee, Deborah Fike, that appears to be responsible for helping spread awareness of the Torque engines as well as Torque-based game products.

http://www.garagegames.com/account/profile/71623

You might want to drop her a line if you're working on an IG project based on TorqueX.  I think any help spreading awareness of your game is worthwhile help.

This is a quote from the bottom of her blog:

I strengthen the Torque brand by promoting Torque-made games. Talk to me about your Torque projects - XBLA games, casual portal hits, iPhone Apps, simulations or MMOs - and we'll work together to spread the word.

Good luck all!
--Chapel

Hi Chapel,

good hint, I'll drop her a few words ;)

Pino

Hey TorqueX 2D owners...can anyone tell me of any tools they are using/considering for RTS development?

I recall that the old Torque Game Engine (the 3D legacy engine) had an RTS Starter Kit, but I obviously won't be using that product.

I'm posting a similar thread in the Garage Games forums...but I just figured I'd check here as well.

Thanks
--Chapel

Hi,

I'm afraid the only available starter kit for Torque X is the Platformer, nothing else... the story is different for developers having a green light for XBLA because they can use Torque 2D and Torque 3D fot Xbox 360 (Torque 360) with tens of different tools.

Pino

Do you have any thoughts on starting to develop a game with the CC version of TX2D and hoping for an update in the future that fixes the bugs keeping the game going through peer review. It seems to me that that is something xna would want to push through. I want to use Torque but I can't afford to buy it now. Should I hold off on development until I can get the source or start now and hope for an update?

Thanks,

Ryan

Hi Ryan,

that's an impossible question :) Right now you'll be able to develop only a 3.0 version with the CC binary license. There are no hints about the availability of the 3.1 and no clues about any fixes to allow the game passing peer review.

You can indeed start with the current 3.0 and wait to convert it to 3.1, but you have to be prepared to wait and also to make your game an hybrid, I mean creating classes that allow you to pass peer review (input management) and using that instead of the TX InputManager (the biggest issue is that TX doesn't expose the PlayerIndex of the player hitting a button). There are also a few other issues but it's possible to work around them.

It's a hard choice... if I were you I'll ask TX2D Pro as a Xmas gift :)

Zaneousryan:

Do you have any thoughts on starting to develop a game with the CC version of TX2D and hoping for an update in the future that fixes the bugs keeping the game going through peer review. It seems to me that that is something xna would want to push through. I want to use Torque but I can't afford to buy it now. Should I hold off on development until I can get the source or start now and hope for an update?

Thanks,

Ryan

You can download the demo version of TX, and use your CC serial to activate it. The demo version is exactly the same as the CC version, binary only. If you search the TX forums you will see that a GG employee shared that nugget of information.

If you are using TX2D you will have absolutely no problem building a game and getting it through review. For my first TX2D game I didn't touch the source code. It did help me trace through to find out how some undocumented stuff works.

Big Daddio:

You can download the demo version of TX, and use your CC serial to activate it. The demo version is exactly the same as the CC version, binary only. If you search the TX forums you will see that a GG employee shared that nugget of information.

If you are using TX2D you will have absolutely no problem building a game and getting it through review. For my first TX2D game I didn't touch the source code. It did help me trace through to find out how some undocumented stuff works.

Hmmm...this did not work for me.  The software is telling me my key is invalid.

Have you done this yourself?  If you can find the post in the TX forums, can you please link to it from here?

Thanks
--Chapel

One thread is here:http://www.torquepowered.com/community/forums/viewthread/106575 You will see that David (GG community manager) has stated he believes it should work.

I am certain there are others.

Hey Big Daddio...thanks for the link.  There seems to be some conflicting information around this topic.

I posted this question on the GG forums, and John Kanalakis had this to say:

As for the Creator's Club forums, I don't believe they are accurate about this. We are building separate packages between Creator's Club and the Full version sold here.

That coupled with the fact that I just tried it this morning to no avail leads me to believe (unfortunately) that this is not the case.

However...I love to be proven wrong when it gets me a free product upgrade, so if anyone figures out how to do this, please post the process here.

Thanks
--Chapel

If you're on the fence regarding a purchase of Torque X, you might want to take a look at John Kanalakis' new blog post which includes the road map for the next several Torque X releases.  This info might help you make a decision.

http://www.torquepowered.com/community/blogs/authorID/44338

Enjoy!
--Chapel

@Pino...can you please give some more detail on what limitations/failures existed in the stock Torque X Input Manager and what steps you took to resolve them?

Are they "Evil Checklist" items?

I'm very curious about this.

Thanks,
--Chapel (Ron Barbosa on the Garage Games forums...and in real life, for that matter)    =)