First off, please note that I'm not trying to be difficult. :)

LetsKillDave:

First, achievements are an important component of our console business model, and have high business value to our publishing partners.  Anything that dilutes the value of achievements will dilute the value of our platform to our partners.

Define "dilute". :) Seriously, I'm not kidding (see my next chunk below). Is this dilution applicable only if I were to implement an achievement-like system in a 360 game or on the PC side (with the announcement of the Live system for the PC)?

LetsKillDave:

Second, we fully understand that the ability to create achievements for more "community related" games is an important feature to developers that are using XNA Game Studio Express.  We're investigating how to support an achievement-like structure that delivers value to our community developers without devaluing the achievement system in-place for our retail partners.

Since there's currently no achievement system in place on a global scale any achievement-like rewards we would offer in our game I would see as not really affecting anyone else. I'd love to see an XNA community implementation of the achievement system, but am I wrong in thinking that if I were to offer something similar in my game that I'm affecting someone outside of my game? It's something that can only be viewed from within my game or on a site strictly for my game (Kind of like the Bungie site for Halo). If I were to allow players of my game to have something posted on my game's site showing that they completed my game is that devaluing the achievement system for MS retail partners? How about if I show the time it took them to get through the game (depending on the game type)? Were is the line drawn?

LetsKillDave:

Third: We value your comments and points of view -- keep them coming!  I think the really important question here is: How do you feel achievements will increase the attractiveness/popularity of your game? 

Partly the same as the achievement system for all 360 games - bragging rights is a big thing. Every game that comes out on the 360 spawns an associated "200/200" or "1000/1000" post on the Xbox forums the same day the game is released. :) People are playing some of the less than stellar games just to say that they got all the achievements. The system is a brilliant piece of P.R. (although I'm sure that's not the main reason for it ;) ).

One of the other boards I'm on is run by a guy that released a game with his own achievement-like system - http://grubbygames.com/

The game(s) is fun on its own, but the ability to pick up the achievements makes it even better. It's an extra something to offer players, not just an incentive for players to play the game, just like the achievement system for the 360.

As an aside, I don't believe you can copyright a gameplay mechanism like an achievement system, right? If I'm understanding correctly that's not the issue though.

Achievements doesn't do much for me personally.  To me, they are just same as a list of side-quests or mini-games.  The achievements I like are integrated as part of the story line, or when you try unexpected things.  The less exciting achievements are pretty artificial (woohoo, you've played the game 100 times) and just force people to replay the games in certain ways.  To me, it would be more exciting to unlock a move/level/weapon/what-not, instead of only some graphical TA-DAs, and +10 points.  The gamer score is just public proof that you unlocked something, and good for bragging like Machaira pointed out.  But I rather get the "Aeroga spell upgrade", instead of "Achievement unlocked, you rescued 99 puppies"...  my 2 cents (or maybe I just say this to compensate for my lowly score ;)).

Waruwaru:

Achievements doesn't do much for me personally.  To me, they are just same as a list of side-quests or mini-games.  The achievements I like are integrated as part of the story line, or when you try unexpected things. 

Which is fine for a game that has a storyline or where you can do unexpected things. That doesn't work well for many of the XBLA games though, like Hexic. And just like side-quests you can choose not to get the Achievements. Gamers are usually such a  competitive bunch though that'll given a choice they'll do everything the game offers, especially if there's any type of reward.

Waruwaru:

or maybe I just say this to compensate for my lowly score ;)).

Yeah, that must be it. ;) :D :p

LetsKillDave:

Third: We value your comments and points of view -- keep them coming!  I think the really important question here is: How do you feel achievements will increase the attractiveness/popularity of your game? 

I see it as the same as most of the current XBLA games and even a lot of the "real" games. Some of the arcade games can get tedious or boring after a bit, but the achievements keep me playing them. Good for Microsoft and developers because I'm paying for them, but good for me because in the end I feel like it's money well spent. I got a higher gamer score and got more play time out of the game. Even if that game time was almost forced from my by my desire for the achievements...

 Same with many "real" games. For instance in Guitar Hero II, I don't need to play on anything other than expert (except for getting my score higher for the leaderboard), but the achievements for beating all the difficulties individually is almost making me play through each difficulty level. And don't get me started on Crackdown, I've put lord knows how many hours into that game trying to get all the achievements (only 8 agility orbs left...).

 So the basic reason I like the achievements is the everyone wins situation: more money for developers, more game time for me without getting bored or not seeing a purpose to playing.

Lets see the X in the center of the achievement graphic is trademarked by MS.

The graphic itself has a copyright.

 The achievement system would be a patent if anything.

 The best way I could think of doing achievements with the 360 is to have a site a person could register at then you have a person enter thier user name into the game.

Then when an achievement is unlocked a code is displayed.

Enter the code after logging in on the website and bam achievement.

Not a lawyer. Not a patent specialist. but a simple system like that is the only way we could do it with the 360 since there's no networking outgoing data unless you are debugging.

Godai Yuhsaku:

The achievement system would be a patent if anything.

I doubt it, at least from a high level.

Godai Yuhsaku:

 The best way I could think of doing achievements with the 360 is to have a site a person could register at then you have a person enter thier user name into the game.

Then when an achievement is unlocked a code is displayed.

Enter the code after logging in on the website and bam achievement.

So you'd have to have a PC. Not good IMO.

Godai Yuhsaku:

a simple system like that is the only way we could do it with the 360 since there's no networking outgoing data unless you are debugging.

Not quite so simple and it's not the only way to do it. You don't need networking so keep achievements within the game - Write the achievement game to a data file on the HD. Load the data file when the game loads. That's simple. :)

Machaira:

Godai Yuhsaku:

The achievement system would be a patent if anything.

I doubt it, at least from a high level.

Maybe this?

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6604008&id=oMQOAAAAEBAJ&pg=PR1&dq=%22game+goal%22+microsoft#PPP1,M1

Networking bit makes it easy for people to look up your score, and be competitive.  Without it, it's just like the ol' PacMan high score list.  Not many people will see it unless they get to your machine.

Waruwaru:

Machaira:

Godai Yuhsaku:

The achievement system would be a patent if anything.

I doubt it, at least from a high level.

Maybe this?

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6604008&id=oMQOAAAAEBAJ&pg=PR1&dq=%22game+goal%22+microsoft#PPP1,M1

That's why I said "from a high level". Also, that looks like a kudos system, not achievements.

If I have a game where I want to give players "trophies" for reaching certain levels or doing certain things, that patent isn't going to mean a thing. Read the 5th bullet point here.

Waruwaru:

Networking bit makes it easy for people to look up your score, and be competitive.  Without it, it's just like the ol' PacMan high score list.  Not many people will see it unless they get to your machine.

That's not the point exactly. If people weren't able to see the 360 game achievements, people would still be posting 200/200 and 1000/1000 threads in the Xbox forums. :) Even without the forums, the competitive nature of games would probably still entice them to unlock the achievements.

Machaira:

That's not the point exactly. If people weren't able to see the 360 game achievements, people would still be posting 200/200 and 1000/1000 threads in the Xbox forums. :) Even without the forums, the competitive nature of games would probably still entice them to unlock the achievements.

Probably personal gaming pref and the type of achievements, but I wouldn't play Perfect Dark Zero 2000 times for a +10.  My goal is usually to complete the story, or just to kill time with some quick games.  :)

David "LetsKillDave" Weller:

I think the really important question here is: How do you feel achievements will increase the attractiveness/popularity of your game? 

I for one get a lot of replay value from achievements. I've recently replayed Bioshock to pick up some I missed out on the first run through. I think having this reward system in place for completing tasks not related to completing the game/storyline can greatly enhance the amount of game time a player spends with a title.

I agree that it is open to abuse, and sadly there are enough idiots out there that we have to be concerned with that, but if there was a way that these achievements could be activated only when it's uploaded to the new XNA community on live, then MS can police it.

It would be nice to have the ability to reward players, even if we limit the number of Gamer Points as with XBLA games.

Personally, I think achievements would be a great asset to XNA. I think Microsoft should try a system like this:

Whilst developing a game, any achievements unlocked are "temporary" and do not appear on your gamer card or gamer score. This gives developers the ability to include and debug achievements in their games, without allowing them to rack up