[Mod(Zman): Discussion split off from a help wanted post asking for help with an MMO]

 

My suggestion for you:
1) Create something that others can actually look at, download, test out.
2) Then ask whether one or two people could perhaps help make that downloadable something a bit better.
3) Work with the people that reply to iterate until you have something better to post for download.
4) Repeat.

Asking for lots of people up front for an unfunded project has never worked in the past.

I feel obligated to post this link.

We often get help wanted ads in the help wanted folder from folk with HUGE ideas, often an MMO or someone who appears to have just an idea and its trying to recruit a team to go from nothing to World Of WarCraft.

Since we discourage discussions in the help wanted forum (they get personal very quickly) this thread is for you all to rant, give advice and generally talk about all the things we don't do in the Help wanted forum.

Also I can link to this thread from the Help Wanted FAQ.

Here's My general advice

1. Dont call yourself a 'studio' and make large claims about your experience when you have nothing delivered. People laugh at you in IRC behind your back.

2. If you want to raise money and/or publishers make sure you have a real doman and don't use addresses like cooldude456@hotmail.com

3. Spell check your website

4. An idea is almost worthless - you can't sell them to anyone.

5. If you have never managed a team before then you have some real shocks coming up when one of your members disappears, steals all the source or just misbehaves. Its really not as easy as finding 5 other people

6. Don't write a help wanted ad that looks like you are contributing nothing. Being a game producer is cool if you are very experienced but expecting to get credit when you are getting others to do the work is not going to fly for very long

 

Appreciate the advice.   I agree, as discouraging as it is.

While I by no means want to create a big game or MMO, I still find that being the creative behind any project is pretty much worthless.  No one cares.  

And I definately understand that.  I've pretty much folded on ever finding a small team that wants to follow my lead.

I do find it to be a shame though.  Just like there are skilled programmers and skilled artists, I think some people are far better being innovative and creative, yet also understand how to go from A to B effeciently and with structure.  

This is why so many great-looking games play horribly, and why so many games lack story depth and/or scripts that draw a player in.   So many games are techincal masterpieces, but conceptually they are cardboard. I think being able to create unique characters, plotlines, and game mechanics is just as important.  

So if developing the whole concept and details doesn't count for anything (because anyone can do that right?), I've come to grips with realizing I have to back to school to either hone my artistic skills, or plow through some programming classes.   Is that generally the right idea?

EDIT: THANKS FOR THE ADVICE SPACEMONKEY, A SMALLER GOAL TO WORK TOWARDS :)

 

 

> So if developing the whole concept and details doesn't count for anything (because anyone can do that right?), I've come to grips with realizing I have to back to school to either hone my artistic skills, or plow through some programming classes.   Is that generally the right idea?

It's not that design ideas don't count for anything, but they are very hard to evaluate in a vacuum, especially by non-designers.  It's also very easy to come up with something that looks great on paper but fails in reality.  Even very talented 'brand-name' designers have that happen to them.

If you have a script for a story driven game, post excerpts.  If you have a game design idea, then implement a very simple version of it.  It's impossible to trust people's self-assessments in generally, doubly so on the internet, so I believe you have to have something to show.

Just do the simplest thing that demonstrates your capabilities.  If your idea is about gameplay, ignore the quality of the graphics and just make it work.  Some of this requires a bit of programming ability, but nothing that a reasonably intelligent person can't teach themselves pretty quickly.  Programming a robust full game requires more software development expertise, but you should be able to hack a demo.

Anyway, I hope that is at least a little helpful, and good luck!

Just like there are skilled programmers and skilled artists, I think some people are far better being innovative and creative, yet also understand how to go from A to B effeciently and with structure. 

How about YOU join someone ELSE's team? You can contribute creativity in a team setting, while not having to go through the work of finding engineers, modelers, lighters etc. Yes, you work on helping someone else's idea, but that's what you have to do to get experience anyway.

Once that team ships a kick-butt game, and your name is on it, you will have a much easier time finding people who might decide to take a chance on your own idea, because you have something credible to back up your claim of specific competence. Remember, you aren't just competing against other teams on the web, you're also competing against people working on their own projects.

I'd love to to join someone elses team - I find it's generally the same challenge though. In my "wanted" post I did explain how I joined a CCG team and helped develop a game from the ground up. Don't mean to carry that "whining" tone. Like I said, I realize the only way to make headway is to bring a tangible protectable skill to the table. (that's the other problem with carrying only a good consept/design/mechanics - as soon as you spill the beans and share the ideas, you've lost the little leverage you had :))

as soon as you spill the beans and share the ideas, you've lost the little leverage you had

Trust me, everyone has ideas coming out their noses. Ideas is not hard. Even filtering ideas between terrible ideas, good but expensive ideas, and good and feasible ideas is not rocket science. The ability to motivate and lead people is a much more important skill. If you feel you have that ability, then posting some references or quotes from the previous project regarding how you did might help, too.

But, first things first. You're not going to get anyone to sign up unless you actually sell your idea, and to sell your idea, it needs to be easy to understand, and it needs to be something people will believe will be successful. Spilling the beans isn't a problem. Compare the movie industry: anyone with a script tries to spread copies to everyone and anyone that will listen, in an effort to actually have the movie made.

For someone in a creative field the one alternative to diplomas is a great portfolio. You shouldn't worry about sharing ideas - prove that you have them first. In fact, be overflowing with them. Show up with a stack of greatly written game ideas, each one better than the next!

Also be sure to show off/work on your ability to present and motivate. It's not enough to just have a great idea, you'll need to get others to "grok" your concept and get on board.

As an example, here's someone I'd hire purely on his game prototype challenges: http://lostgarden.com/

http://lostgarden.com/2008/02/play-with-your-peas-game-prototyping.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/06/tree-story.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/03/spacecute-prototyping-challenge.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/05/cutegod-prototyping-challenge.html

CVO:

While I by no means want to create a big game or MMO, I still find that being the creative behind any project is pretty much worthless.  No one cares.  

The trick is to have the Idea AND the Money

People care when they're paid to :)

LOL, indeed they do.   Thanks again for all of the imp