[Mod(Zman): Discussion split off from a help wanted post asking for help with an MMO]

 

My suggestion for you:
1) Create something that others can actually look at, download, test out.
2) Then ask whether one or two people could perhaps help make that downloadable something a bit better.
3) Work with the people that reply to iterate until you have something better to post for download.
4) Repeat.

Asking for lots of people up front for an unfunded project has never worked in the past.

I feel obligated to post this link.

We often get help wanted ads in the help wanted folder from folk with HUGE ideas, often an MMO or someone who appears to have just an idea and its trying to recruit a team to go from nothing to World Of WarCraft.

Since we discourage discussions in the help wanted forum (they get personal very quickly) this thread is for you all to rant, give advice and generally talk about all the things we don't do in the Help wanted forum.

Also I can link to this thread from the Help Wanted FAQ.

Here's My general advice

1. Dont call yourself a 'studio' and make large claims about your experience when you have nothing delivered. People laugh at you in IRC behind your back.

2. If you want to raise money and/or publishers make sure you have a real doman and don't use addresses like cooldude456@hotmail.com

3. Spell check your website

4. An idea is almost worthless - you can't sell them to anyone.

5. If you have never managed a team before then you have some real shocks coming up when one of your members disappears, steals all the source or just misbehaves. Its really not as easy as finding 5 other people

6. Don't write a help wanted ad that looks like you are contributing nothing. Being a game producer is cool if you are very experienced but expecting to get credit when you are getting others to do the work is not going to fly for very long

 

Appreciate the advice.   I agree, as discouraging as it is.

While I by no means want to create a big game or MMO, I still find that being the creative behind any project is pretty much worthless.  No one cares.  

And I definately understand that.  I've pretty much folded on ever finding a small team that wants to follow my lead.

I do find it to be a shame though.  Just like there are skilled programmers and skilled artists, I think some people are far better being innovative and creative, yet also understand how to go from A to B effeciently and with structure.  

This is why so many great-looking games play horribly, and why so many games lack story depth and/or scripts that draw a player in.   So many games are techincal masterpieces, but conceptually they are cardboard. I think being able to create unique characters, plotlines, and game mechanics is just as important.  

So if developing the whole concept and details doesn't count for anything (because anyone can do that right?), I've come to grips with realizing I have to back to school to either hone my artistic skills, or plow through some programming classes.   Is that generally the right idea?

EDIT: THANKS FOR THE ADVICE SPACEMONKEY, A SMALLER GOAL TO WORK TOWARDS :)

 

 

> So if developing the whole concept and details doesn't count for anything (because anyone can do that right?), I've come to grips with realizing I have to back to school to either hone my artistic skills, or plow through some programming classes.   Is that generally the right idea?

It's not that design ideas don't count for anything, but they are very hard to evaluate in a vacuum, especially by non-designers.  It's also very easy to come up with something that looks great on paper but fails in reality.  Even very talented 'brand-name' designers have that happen to them.

If you have a script for a story driven game, post excerpts.  If you have a game design idea, then implement a very simple version of it.  It's impossible to trust people's self-assessments in generally, doubly so on the internet, so I believe you have to have something to show.

Just do the simplest thing that demonstrates your capabilities.  If your idea is about gameplay, ignore the quality of the graphics and just make it work.  Some of this requires a bit of programming ability, but nothing that a reasonably intelligent person can't teach themselves pretty quickly.  Programming a robust full game requires more software development expertise, but you should be able to hack a demo.

Anyway, I hope that is at least a little helpful, and good luck!

Just like there are skilled programmers and skilled artists, I think some people are far better being innovative and creative, yet also understand how to go from A to B effeciently and with structure. 

How about YOU join someone ELSE's team? You can contribute creativity in a team setting, while not having to go through the work of finding engineers, modelers, lighters etc. Yes, you work on helping someone else's idea, but that's what you have to do to get experience anyway.

Once that team ships a kick-butt game, and your name is on it, you will have a much easier time finding people who might decide to take a chance on your own idea, because you have something credible to back up your claim of specific competence. Remember, you aren't just competing against other teams on the web, you're also competing against people working on their own projects.

I'd love to to join someone elses team - I find it's generally the same challenge though. In my "wanted" post I did explain how I joined a CCG team and helped develop a game from the ground up. Don't mean to carry that "whining" tone. Like I said, I realize the only way to make headway is to bring a tangible protectable skill to the table. (that's the other problem with carrying only a good consept/design/mechanics - as soon as you spill the beans and share the ideas, you've lost the little leverage you had :))

as soon as you spill the beans and share the ideas, you've lost the little leverage you had

Trust me, everyone has ideas coming out their noses. Ideas is not hard. Even filtering ideas between terrible ideas, good but expensive ideas, and good and feasible ideas is not rocket science. The ability to motivate and lead people is a much more important skill. If you feel you have that ability, then posting some references or quotes from the previous project regarding how you did might help, too.

But, first things first. You're not going to get anyone to sign up unless you actually sell your idea, and to sell your idea, it needs to be easy to understand, and it needs to be something people will believe will be successful. Spilling the beans isn't a problem. Compare the movie industry: anyone with a script tries to spread copies to everyone and anyone that will listen, in an effort to actually have the movie made.

For someone in a creative field the one alternative to diplomas is a great portfolio. You shouldn't worry about sharing ideas - prove that you have them first. In fact, be overflowing with them. Show up with a stack of greatly written game ideas, each one better than the next!

Also be sure to show off/work on your ability to present and motivate. It's not enough to just have a great idea, you'll need to get others to "grok" your concept and get on board.

As an example, here's someone I'd hire purely on his game prototype challenges: http://lostgarden.com/

http://lostgarden.com/2008/02/play-with-your-peas-game-prototyping.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/06/tree-story.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/03/spacecute-prototyping-challenge.html
http://lostgarden.com/2007/05/cutegod-prototyping-challenge.html

CVO:

While I by no means want to create a big game or MMO, I still find that being the creative behind any project is pretty much worthless.  No one cares.  

The trick is to have the Idea AND the Money

People care when they're paid to :)

LOL, indeed they do.   Thanks again for all of the imput.

I really don't want to be that guy with nothing but a bunch of "cool ideas."  I still would argue that great vision/ideas/creativity is an underutilized and unappreciated skill set - and that is often the true reason why so many games fail (the idea wasn't that cool or applicable after all, because that's not most people's forte).  However, I 100% understand why that's not enough to garner any attention whatsoever, because it's not tangible or uniquely valuable.   

Thus, I have some artistic skill and I am looking in to classes to begin training myself digitally - simple 2D stuff to start.  (I really love building/designing 2D top-down worlds/landscapes - not sure why, it's like drawing maps for fun).

Hopefully when I can lend simple/intermediate graphics to a project, I'll be able to garner more interest.   If anyone has any books/webistes that help beginners, that would be awesome.   

CVO:

I still would argue that great vision/ideas/creativity is an underutilized and unappreciated skill set - and that is often the true reason why so many games fail (the idea wasn't that cool or applicable after all, because that's not most people's forte).

I don't mean to be rude, & please don't take this the wrong way but..

I hear this so much nowadays by aspiring designers with either little or no professional experience it's unreal..

With no real tangiable experience on a games development team or without a wide spread of industry connections to fill you in on their company's working practices & the sources of their failures & successes, how do you know why so many games fail..?

From my experience in the industry & from an observational perspective in things i've heard, people i've spoken to or things i've read on dev publications & websites, I'd say any lack of *great* vision/ideas/creativity is probably the last reason why so many games games fail with the vast majority of cases being down to inssufficient time/money to polish, playtest & iterate on design at the micro-level..

In truth it doesn't take a grand vision to make a game good & this is precisely the reason why the design-up-front method of games development has been abandoned by so many studios over the years. Games design, being more of an art than an exact science, is by it's very nature an organic process which takes time & commitment to get right through a series of iterative cycles, prototyping, implmenting & evaluating until you come up with something that works..

Every game i've ever worked on sounded grand and wonderful at the beginning but it's only as the game begins to materialise in code form that we see how certain aspects work & others do not.. You need to as a design, learn to be analytical & intelligently discern a bad mechanic/design feature from a good one in implementation regardless of how much you love the "idea" of it & you need to be able to let things go & come up with something new that fits better into the overal flow & feel of the game in practise.. That's why any *good* games designer worth his weight is only so due to the experience he's had over time in the field working out the bad bits & really developing the game in every area to form a consistent end product which plays and feels great & may or may not end up being identical (or close) to original vision, whatever that may have been..

Oi vey.  That's not what I was saying - maybe it came off the wrong way, sorry.   I respect your experience and  agree with 99% of your post.   Much of what your describing is exactly what I was getting at.  I think my words were rehashed a bit and I get the feeling there is some general "noob' hate around here, probably for good reason.

I came here to this site to learn and get advice as I follow a path in to the art/design side of this industry.  I love the end-goal of creating a small game potentially for XBLA.  I am working on being able to bring something tangible and attractive to the table (besides my 'totally awesome game ideas' of course).  Step by step.

 

 

   

 

CVO:

Oi vey.  That's not what I was saying - maybe it came off the wrong way, sorry.   I respect your experience and  agree with 99% of your post.   Much of what your describing is exactly what I was getting at.  I think my words were rehashed a bit and I get the feeling there is some general "noob' hate around here, probably for good reason.

I don't think anyone particular has anything as severe as "noob hate".. I personally don't like it when inaccurate sweeping statements or generalisations are made on "how the industry works" from an outsider perspective.. Don't have anything against you or against "noobs" though..

CVO:

I came here to this site to learn and get advice as I follow a path in to the art/design side of this industry.  I love the end-goal of creating a small game potentially for XBLA.  I am working on being able to bring something tangible and attractive to the table (besides my 'totally awesome game ideas' of course).  Step by step.

Sounds good.. All the best to you in that endevour..!

In anycase if your serious about flexing your designer/art muscles then maybe it might be worth setting up a thread in the Help Wanted forum over at GameDev.net.. If you can put together a worthwhile enough pitch then i'm sure you could attract a programmer or two.. (Also polycount forums is the best place i've found to go for artists if that's what your looking for..)

IMO a good project pitch would go something like this..:-

- introduce yourself, your aims & goals for the project. give a summary of the focus of the project you intend & summary how development plan
- provide background on yourself, skills & experience. As a designer you're probably looking to demonstrate your talents without giving up the entire design for your project publicly for someone to come along a steal (provided it's something clever & implementable in the scope of a one man [or smallscale] dev team..) a good way to do this would be to write up a few clever game designs, a couple of paragraphs each with some mockup artwork (can be photoshopped & doesn't have to be amazing, just clear enough to demonstrate the idea..) on a blog or a website & link to them. Make them sound fun & intruiging & really try to express yourself well enough to really "sell" the idea to the point where the reader would say something like "wow that sounds cool! I'd love to play that" & not "yeah yeah I've played/seen that before in x game"..
- clearly define who you are looking to get on board, what their roles will be & the level of commitment you require from them. This will save you from getting people to agree to help but then dissappear later on down the line, forcing you to start recruiting again..
- let your passion for the project shine through & really try to sell the vision to the reader. A designer is no good if he can't communicate the vision of the game to others.. Images, mockups & concept art can help with this along with references to concepts, media etc which share similarities to aspects of the game (they don't have to be restricted to other games too)..
- lean towards local helpers over trans-continental ones. any team you can actually have the opportunity of meeting up with will likely stay together longer..

If you can put all of these things into a clear & concise post without grammar mistakes & waffle then i'd expect you to successfully assemble a solid team pretty quickly..

Good luck & I really do wish you all the best with your endevours..!

CVO:

  I think my words were rehashed a bit and I get the feeling there is some general "noob' hate around here, probably for good reason.   

What often comes across as n00b hate is unfortunately just a cold hard slap of reality that is actually very hard for us to tell people without them getting defensive. After all for a lot of the people who post in the help wanted we are, to them, killing their dreams.

Anyone who has spent time in these forums (or the gamedev.net for years before) has seen the "one post wonders". Their first post declares that their new game studio "lEEt gamez" has just been formed and they have the most amazing idea ever for a revolutionary game and all they need is 2 programmers/1 artist/etc often with a unrealistic timescale and almost always with a budget of $0 with an offer of payment in the form of 'credit' in a game they intend to give away for free.

I would bet if you emailed everyone in the help wanted folder for the last year and asked how their game was going you will not find a single person who is close to finishing and most will have never even started.

We love n00bs.... it helps our post count when they ask the same questions over and over again ;-)

 

 

Thank you for the support and kind words.   And I hear yah - that would annoy me to if I were in your shoes :).  I guess I am still speaking more as a consumer/critic looking IN at the industry, while many of you are in the actual design process looking OUT.

So that's my plan - and I did post a wanted ad.   I think it's probably just a bit too early though.   I need to learn more about how to get my art in to the right formats, create some conceptional 2D art, and like you said get a blog going.  That will also give me some time to really flush out my idea.

 

The ZMan [MVP/Moderator]:

CVO:

  I think my words were rehashed a bit and I get the feeling there is some general "noob' hate around here, probably for good reason.   

What often comes across as n00b hate is unfortunately just a cold hard slap of reality that is actually very hard for us to tell people without them getting defensive. After all for a lot of the people who post in the help wanted we are, to them, killing their dreams.

Anyone who has spent time in these forums (or the gamedev.net for years before) has seen the "one post wonders". Their first post declares that their new game studio "lEEt gamez" has just been formed and they have the most amazing idea ever for a revolutionary game and all they need is 2 programmers/1 artist/etc often with a unrealistic timescale and almost always with a budget of $0 with an offer of payment in the form of 'credit' in a game they intend to give away for free.

I would bet if you emailed everyone in the help wanted folder for the last year and asked how their game was going you will not find a single person who is close to finishing and most will have never even started.

We love n00bs.... it helps our post count when they ask the same questions over and over again ;-)

 

 

Yep, understood.  I just hope that being in the position you are in (which I respect and envy greatly) that you can try to see that some us are a bit more honest, mature, realistic, and dedicated to moving foward - and that we all have to start somewhere.  I am going to have 'dumb' questions and sound inexperienced, because I am.   That doesn't mean I need to be slapped silly I hope. lol   

We will happily answer questions till the cows come home...

If someone spends 6 months asking questions, learning, shows screen shots and a prototype game and THEN posts in the help wanted forum that they have a small demo with programmer art and sound, shows some pictures, links to a nice website or blog about the game and asks for help they will earn our worship and respect... and they willprobably find some like minded artists who are waiting for someone like them. They might even work for free.

Shuggy is a great example of a game with some original mechanics, made by a programmer from England and artist from Australia.

I think there's something to be learned from the way those two got together.

David could have started off in the forums, posting something like "I have this idea for a game that's going to be sort of an old-skool 2D platformer, where your character is a vampire, only there's time travel and you can rotate the levels. All I need is an artist to make me some sprite animations". But that probably would have just confused everyone. Time travel? Sounds intriguing, but how's that really going to work? How do I know this guy can deliver? Maybe I'll just be wasting my time if I spend a week or two drawing vampire animations for him?

Instead, he just went ahead and programmed the game, using placeholder programmer artwork. Once he was able to post a playable version, everyone could see exactly how the gameplay mechanic worked. He was able to prove not only that the idea was fun, but also that he was able to implement it successfully and design a good variety of levels using it. At that point, it was a no-brainer for an artist who came across this game to get in touch and offer to spruce up the graphics...

Shawn Hargreaves:

Shuggy is a great example of a game with some original mechanics, made by a programmer from England and artist from Australia.

I think there's something to be learned from the way those two got together.

David could have started off in the forums, posting something like "I have this idea for a game that's going to be sort of an old-skool 2D platformer, where your character is a vampire, only there's time travel and you can rotate the levels. All I need is an artist to make me some sprite animations". But that probably would have just confused everyone. Time travel? Sounds intriguing, but how's that really going to work? How do I know this guy can deliver? Maybe I'll just be wasting my time if I spend a week or two drawing vampire animations for him?

Instead, he just went ahead and programmed the game, using placeholder programmer artwork. Once he was able to post a playable version, everyone could see exactly how the gameplay mechanic worked. He was able to prove not only that the idea was fun, but also that he was able to implement it successfully and design a good variety of levels using it. At that point, it was a no-brainer for an artist who came across this game to get in touch and offer to spruce up the graphics...

 

Very cool - I agree.  I've been scrounging around (and following links, etc), and it sounds like that can sometimes happen in reverse too yes?  Where is starts with artistic concept?

CVO:

Very cool - I agree.  I've been scrounging around (and following links, etc), and it sounds like that can sometimes happen in reverse too yes?  Where is starts with artistic concept?

Potentially, but I think it is harder that way around.

If you have design + code, but no artwork, people can still play the game and see that it is fun. But if you have design + art with no code, it's still just a concept rather than a playable demo.

It's also harder for an artist to address the question of "is it actually going to be possible to implement this concept" if they don't have at least some technical background to go along with their ideas.

Yes, it can happen in reverse. However, you need more than just concept art -- you need actual game-ready art. Ideally presented as a downloadable level for some existing game engine, but a render out of 3ds Max might work, too. For an example, see this thread (not XNA).

I think the main need is time. If you can show that you have already spent a significant amount of time on the project, AND you can show that what you got for that time is high quality, then others are more likely to believe that the project will be successful, and their time might be well spent.

So that's what I am working on. I have a fair share of concept art (not scribbles, I have moderate talent) and I am working on getting that translated in to 2D art. (will be needing guidance there proboably).

Once I have a boatload of that done (enough to portray a full level or two maybe) I'll post it for review.

Thanks again all - this thread has definately has been motivating and helpful. TBC

That sounds like just the right approach. If you can post a level full of 2D art, that'll certainly draw some interest. If nothing else, then because pretty pictures always help :-)

without giving up the entire design for your project publicly for someone to come along a steal

Repeat after me: "Game Designs Are (Largely) Not Stolen." Just like book scripts are (largely) not stolen in the publishing industry. And a book script is the entire thing, not just an outline, like a game vision document. (I don't believe in the fully developed game design document, because it'll be obsolete as soon as you start coding)

If your design is so good, and you have such clarity in presentation, then I will work hard to get you on the team, rather than rip you off. Much better to have the source of all that goodness, than just lifting a small sliver of goodness.