I guess they killed forum access at http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/default.aspx?ForumGroupID=20&SiteID=1 . If someone starts up a new forum thread server somewhere dealing with only DirectX/Win32API/C++ then please let me know. I doubt most DirectX coders that arent using it for games are gonna be signing up for a ridiculous gamer tag to use this site with all its tracking information. I think this guy's post summed up my view on the current state of DirectX:

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1509975&SiteID=1

I'm starting to doubt DirectX 10 will even take off until late 2008... I can see it now... XBox 360 version 3.5 DiamondPlatinum model with DirectX 10 SM 4.1, 45nm CPU, external discrete R600...

 

While I did find the gamertag thing a tad bit annoying I don't think these forums 'suck', quite the opposite. Nice clean design (though the quick reply feature could use some work) to-the-point boards and a generelly nice feel.

I don't think microsoft wants to push people away so much so it wants to force people to use newer technologies, I love C# because I love Java but Microsoft created XNA which is awesome and why I plan on learning more C# instead of Java. Soon as I'm done with my C++ game I'm going to start using C# and XNA more fully.

Not sure about 'real game developers', if 'real game developers' want to program in C++ for the rest of their lives then they can keep at it, I think 'real game developers' will have to at least in part start using C# (which some already have) in the near future.

The main problem I see is that Microsoft is ignoring that there is a market/group of developers out there that A) Aren't using DirectX for gaming. B) Don't need/want to learn "new technologies", whether they are languanges like C#/Java/etc or things like "XNA". By "lumping together" the DirectX set of technologies with a newly created "BRAND" called XNA, creating something called "XNABuild", which from what I've read is just something to allow things to compile on x86 and PowerPC chips, but i could be wrong(and this is needed/useful by pure C/C++ PC game coders HOW?), and then forcing non-game DirectX developers to "create a gamer tag", which has nothing to do with what they are making, it puts DirectX into a bad position of only being "evolved" for "games in general", when it has other uses. I know it all started as WinG/Game SDK, but until version 9.0c and pre-XNA it was also highly useful for scientific visualization of datasets in 3D. While it still is and will probably be useful to do that for the foreseeable future, the fact that the forums are "gamer associated" and "XNA-biased" will obviously have an impact on General DirectX technologies forum TRAFFIC. Its been a month, and the DirectX forums are basically dead. Before the old forums on MS were closed, there were new multiple postings daily in the DirectX forums. What happened to those users/that activity? Someone please tell me so I can go read forums actively discussing DirectX technologies (not-XNA), because apparently its not taking off in this forum.

 

To be fair to Microsoft, those forums that were closed were placed under the "Game Technologies" forum group. They've always been assuming (apparently) that people there were using them for games as well. It still stink that there is no general DirectX forum, but I suppose it is Microsoft's prerogative to do what they will with their brands and technologies in terms of marketing and targetting. I know you're hoping to not learn a new technology, but with Microsoft pushing DirectX more for gaming, perhaps using OpenGL would lead to a better non-gaming solution. That and it would allow your programs to be more crossplatform should you ever want to release OS X or Linux apps.

c1t1z3n0:

The main problem I see is that Microsoft is ignoring that there is a market/group of developers out there that A) Aren't using DirectX for gaming. B) Don't need/want to learn "new technologies", whether they are languanges like C#/Java/etc or things like "XNA". By "lumping together" the DirectX set of technologies with a newly created "BRAND" called XNA, creating something called "XNABuild", which from what I've read is just something to allow things to compile on x86 and PowerPC chips, but i could be wrong(and this is needed/useful by pure C/C++ PC game coders HOW?), and then forcing non-game DirectX developers to "create a gamer tag", which has nothing to do with what they are making, it puts DirectX into a bad position of only being "evolved" for "games in general", when it has other uses. I know it all started as WinG/Game SDK, but until version 9.0c and pre-XNA it was also highly useful for scientific visualization of datasets in 3D. While it still is and will probably be useful to do that for the foreseeable future, the fact that the forums are "gamer associated" and "XNA-biased" will obviously have an impact on General DirectX technologies forum TRAFFIC. Its been a month, and the DirectX forums are basically dead. Before the old forums on MS were closed, there were new multiple postings daily in the DirectX forums. What happened to those users/that activity? Someone please tell me so I can go read forums actively discussing DirectX technologies (not-XNA), because apparently its not taking off in this forum.

 

Well in the end Microsoft is trying to create a community of indie developers for the Xbox 360 and basically with XNA it can do that pretty well whichis why theres this whole XNA forums thing going on.

Maybe it was never in its plan to to make DirectX multi purpouse, perhaps it was supposed to always go for gaming and it picked up a few non-gaming followers which it will obviously lose if Microsoft keeps going this path.

Though XNA doesn't mean C++/DirectX doesn't exist suddenly, you can still do what you want with it...

Lets get the terminology right here (since Microsoft did such a bad job of it we will spend years correcting this).

XNA is a BRAND... its the brand of all gaming technolgies from Microsoft. So if you use the letters XNA alone this is what you mean. However when most people refer to XNA they actually mean XNA Game studio express... technically wrong but we can normally work out what people mean.

XNA has several products: DirectX, XNA Game Studio Express (which includes the XNA Framework), XACT, PIX etc.

So these forums are called the XNA forums not becuase of XNA Game Studio Express but becuase of the XNA brand. This is why within the forums we have sepaerate areas for XNA Game Studo Express and for native (and managed) DirectX.

Yes it appears that the volume is down since the MSDN forums moved to the XNA forums, especially on non GSE questions. However the requirement for a gamertag has been removed AFAIK so that should not be a limiting factor any more. These are still the official forums and the only serious alternative is www.gamedev.net - maybe thats where everyone went.

Yes some people used DIrectX for non gaming applications but even in the native world it was a minority. DirectX has and always will be a gaming technology.

The ZMan:

Yes it appears that the volume is down since the MSDN forums moved to the XNA forums, especially on non GSE questions. However the requirement for a gamertag has been removed AFAIK so that should not be a limiting factor any more....

I don't think the gamer tag requirement has been removed.  I had to create one about 2 hours ago when I tried to sign in. 

You're right. Microsoft is trying to create a community of indie developers for the Xbox 360. The problem is, this "attempted solution" at that is doomed to failure. Its really simple. First, if someone wants to make a game that is actually fun to play and takes more than 15 minutes to write, they would have to become a programmer eventually. Hobbyists into computer games don't write games. They play with code, and maybe make a Tetris-HelloWorld app. Then they move on. Attempting to make "game development" easier by shielding the user from the PC hardware by putting a wrapper like XNA(not the brand, the GSE/managed XNA) over it and pretending the idea that hundreds of quickly-created games by a bunch of indie developers is going to create a huge game market over the next 10 years which microsoft needs to bolster its 4 pillar business model of OS/Office/XBox/NetServices is not gonna help gaming. Its gonna flood the market with dozens of "cookie-cutter" game rip-offs. That is exactly what killed gaming in the past 5-8 years. I stopped buying games after nothing innovative game out. And Microsoft wants to continue this "cookie-cutter" gaming idea/mentality/model, in the hopes of making $0.02 off of the 1,000,000 indie developers weak creations? Why not just give the indie C/C++ developers a cheap version of the XBox XDK and let us put out games on that? Why force us to change to a managed/controlled language while we already have skills with C that can be used to create games now? I know I'm being cynical, but I don't think this is gonna help gaming. It's gonna do to gaming what American idol did to music. Kill creativity/innovation. I may be wrong. Time will tell.

Its really simple. First, if someone wants to make a game that is actually fun to play and takes more than 15 minutes to write, they would have to become a programmer eventually.

Surely you are not implying that C++ developers are 'real programmers' and C# developers are not?

Hobbyists into computer games don't write games. They play with code, and maybe make a Tetris-HelloWorld app. Then they move on.

You are probably right here, but what does that have to do with the technology - if you spent any time on gamedev.net in the last 3 years you would know there are just as many C++ developers using native DirectX and Open GL who never even complete tetris and move on

Attempting to make "game development" easier by shielding the user from the PC hardware by putting a wrapper like XNA(not the brand, the GSE/managed XNA) 

I do believe its a goal to make game development easier but really GSE doesn't shield very much once you get beyond the basics. Once you hit render targets and shaders you still have to understand the low level stuff. Maybe one day this too will be abstracted away.

over it and pretending the idea that hundreds of quickly-created games by a bunch of indie developers is going to create a huge game market over the next 10 years

Its gonna flood the market with dozens of "cookie-cutter" game rip-offs. That is exactly what killed gaming in the past 5-8 years.

THe market is already flooded with cookie cutter rip offs of such simple games - nobody makes much of a profit selling the indie develped ones. Of course the AAA studios are also very guilty of cookie cutter games. Again its not the technology that has driven this - its the Americon Idol driven public who want to bounce from once identical experience to another. People sell what people want to buy.

Why not just give the indie C/C++ developers a cheap version of the XBox XDK and let us put out games on that?

Well the obvious answer to this is console security and attach rate. If you think this is restricting then I suggest you check out the homebrew offerings from Sony and Ninetendo and see if they are any better.

But you somehow think this will increase the quaility of games? What makes a C++ developer so much better at producing games. You admit yourself that there is no innovtion in games and yet most of those games were written in C++.

Why force us to change to a managed/controlled language while we already have skills with C that can be used to create games now?

I really don't think switching to C# is a very tough step for any competant C/C++ programmer. Yes its a pain at times but there are some professional game developers who disagree with you http://www.gamedevblog.com/2007/03/some_answers.html

It's gonna do to gaming what American idol did to music. Kill creativity/innovation.

Its not XNA or any other technology that will do this. Its demand. Why does American Idol get the audience it does - becuase people want to watch. Writing games in XNA or Java or C++ doesn't change this. And didn't you already say that innovation was already dead ("That is exactly what killed gaming in the past 5-8 years.") :-)

The bottom line here is that its not the technology that makes good or bad or innovtive games. XNA may limit things enough that you couldn't write the top 5% (random number pickked out of thin air) of games out there in terms of pure horse power and technology but its more than capable of competing with the rest of the games.

TapeWyrm:

The ZMan:

Yes it appears that the volume is down since the MSDN forums moved to the XNA forums, especially on non GSE questions. However the requirement for a gamertag has been removed AFAIK so that should not be a limiting factor any more....

I don't think the gamer tag requirement has been removed.  I had to create one about 2 hours ago when I tried to sign in. 

Yes I was wrong, I've had it confirmed that removing the gamer tag requirement was too big a feature to remove... possibly in a future update (no promises when etc etc etc)

I like you ZMan. At least you take the time to explain yourself. On the other hand, I also think you're part of the dark side, so your opinions are biased. :) First off, developers are developers. I don't think what language you choose or platform you develop for can define you as "real" or not. What I do think though is that in the world of games and game creation, XNA/XNA GSE/C#/managed code is not something that is needed to create a better "global gaming environment", something both I and Microsoft would like to see. What is needed is education of all parts of the software/hardware/platform, from the lowest level to the highest, and as little "bloat" as possible. XNA is fine if you wanna help hobbyists make Tetris-HelloWorld games on a boring weekend, but beyond that, in my opinion, it is just a stumbling block in allowing the younger, next generation, game coders/developers that are coming up "learn" game coding and development. If you start out with learning C, you can pick up ANY language easy after that, which you pointed out. The point is, why would you wanna bother? You are close to the hardware and don't need the bloat with another "framework" and "managed code". Maybe it is easier to pick up C# than C at first for someone that has never coded, but for someone that knows C, and doesn't NEED to learn a new language, it is an annoyance if it is made mandatory by the eventual inclusion of features in the managed framework that don't get put in the base DirectX API. I honestly can say I would sooner switch to OpenGL than learn any managed code in this lifetime. As for your comments on shielding the user, you kind of prove my point. "...GSE doesn't shield very much once you get beyond the basics." proves that there IS shielding, which there doesn't HAVE to be if you know basic Windows, WinMain(), WndProc() and those sorts of things. Things that, in my opinion, SHOULD be learned by ANYONE coding a game on Windows. Familiarity with the platform can only HELP a developer of that platform, and ANY shielding in my mind hurts the aspiring game developer. Know thyself. Know thy-platform. :) As for the "people sell what people want to buy" comment, in a perfect world, maybe thats true. But in reality, I WANT to buy a car that doesn't run on petroleum as I'm sure most people do, but the "people" aren't selling a viable alternate to us yet(when there is ethanol stations on every block, then the change will have occured). And I don't think that the game industry is "selling people what they want". I think its more that there is a lack of creativity and innovation, lots of studios just sitting back and making tons of cash off buying engines and slapping on new artwork, and things of that sort. The PC game industry needs a spark like the one created by the Nintendo Wii. Until that happens, the cookie-cutting games will continue to flood the market. I do agree that Sony and Nintendo have even lamer dev tools than Microsoft/DirectX, so I would never want to code games on that platform until that changed. Having a cheaper XDK would allow more indie-C++ developers access to the XBox360 market. That is a huge market, and the incentive of selling something for $20-$50 to millions of people would add more content to the gaming world, so it would have a positive affect. As for the console security and attach rate, I don't think those things are as important as getting as many developers possible creating content for a console you've created. I never understood that issue. Its ok to give millions of XNA C# people the ability to enter into this "arcade" world and charge them for it, and put restrictions on transfering games, and let them sell games, etc, but not the C++ ones? I don't buy it. C++ programmers aren't any more innovative than C# programmers, but they definately have a better understanding of the Windows/PC game platform, which is only a benefit, and can help. As for the switching argument, I could easily learn C# if I wanted to. But I don't. It gives me no advantage/benefit. I can do everything I need to do in the programming world, gaming or app dev, for at least the next couple of decades, with C/C++. While I do agree that it isn't XNA or any technology that actually kills creativity or innovation, it can encourage it if it encourages developers to not become as familiar as possible with their development platform of choice. Any shielding at all will do this. I guess I'm a purist on this issue. As for the "American Idol gets its audience because people want to watch it" comment, I have to disagree with you there. Being the part-time conspiracy theorist that I am, its obvious that TV programming isn't what people want to watch. Its what the evil television corporations want to "program" your brain with. Hence the term tv "programming". We will see if this XNA experiment will work out over the next 5 years. Personally, I think its not gonna help spark creativity and innovation as much as expected. If anything, it will create a division among C and C# Windows game developers thats as lame as the division between Windows and Linux users. Time will tell.

 

c1t1z3n0:

ONE GIANT PARAGRAPH

I think you're not giving GSE/C# much of a chance. I was born and rased on C/C++. The more I use it, the more I hate it. C lets you shoot yourself in the foot, C++ lets you reuse the bullet. Most other languages I've used I'm fairly indifferent towards. The more I use C#/.NET though, the more I like it. I hope GSE will support other .NET languages.

As a software engineer, you should strive to learn many programming languages. Most languages are engineered by fairly intelligent people, all with patterns they try to push, many of which are quite useful and transferable to other languages. More expressive languages allow you to come up with solutions that you may not have ever come up with in lower level languages like C/C++.

Also, some things should be hidden in my opinion. Why the heck do I need to write a WinMain with a WinProc and all this other baloney that I'm bound to screw up half the time? Memorizing stupid API calls and patterns that 90% of programmers get wrong anyway doesn't make me a good programmer. Banging out slick apps does, which is what managed code is awesome at. Top Gun Maveric Programmer might be able pull all sorts of low level Win32 tricks but who cares if it takes him an hour just to get DX initialized? With MDX I can do it in less than 10. With Xna I just start a new project.

I feel like C++ programmers (myself included mind you) have this stigma against other languages because they've wasted so much time learning ridiculous syntax and memory management. Memory management is important of course, but not something I want to waste 50% of my time debugging when people a million times smarter than me already have a fine solution up and running.

Stanlo:

I think you're not giving GSE/C# much of a chance. I was born and rased on C/C++. The more I use it, the more I hate it. C lets you shoot yourself in the foot, C++ lets you reuse the bullet. Most other languages I've used I'm fairly indifferent towards. The more I use C#/.NET though, the more I like it. I hope GSE will support other .NET languages.

[...]

Also, some things should be hidden in my opinion. Why the heck do I need to write a WinMain with a WinProc and all this other baloney that I'm bound to screw up half the time? Memorizing stupid API calls and patterns that 90% of programmers get wrong anyway doesn't make me a good programmer. Banging out slick apps does, which is what managed code is awesome at. Top Gun Maveric Programmer might be able pull all sorts of low level Win32 tricks but who cares if it takes him an hour just to get DX initialized? With MDX I can do it in less than 10. With Xna I just start a new project.

I feel like C++ programmers (myself included mind you) have this stigma against other languages because they've wasted so much time learning ridiculous syntax and memory management. Memory management is important of course, but not something I want to waste 50% of my time debugging when people a million times smarter than me already have a fine solution up and running.

All quoted for truth.

Too often I see here and at GameDev already bashing C#/managed code/XNA Framework as 'too slow' or not powerful enough despite it only being in version one for about six months. Six months isn't proving time. Wait for people to start shipping games. C# combined with XNA Framework is amazing for creating games quickly and easily, but this doesn't mean it hinders your game quality in either graphics and performance. Performance and ease of use do not have to, nor are, mutually exclusive.

If you place your memory allocations in your constructors, and free them in your destructors, how are you shooting yourself in the foot? Your idea of "should strive to learn many languages" has a flaw in it for people who want to master one language, instead of being a jack-of-all other languages. If I never code for the web, and always do app dev, why do I need to learn HTML/Javascript/etc? I don't. And if you think C is a lower level language, than why do they call it High Level Shading Langauge (HLSL) when they went from ASM to C in vertex/pixel shaders? We can agree to disagree on the "should be hidden" point. To each his own. I don't have to memorize stupid API calls either, I just highlight them, click F1, and have the syntax in front of me thanks to MSDN in 2 seconds. It takes me 2 seconds to initialize DX using C, as you can see in my code here: http://mysite.verizon.net/~lharrison74/xremote.htm, so I don't get where you are confused about the hour vs 10 min thing. I don't have a stigma against other languages. My stigma is with DirectX core support being shifted from the base API to the managed API. And my debugging is simple too, not something that takes 50% of my time. Maybe you should learn assembly and then re-learn C and realize the difference between low level and high level languages.

c1t1z3n0:

My stigma is with DirectX core support being shifted from the base API to the managed API.

If you knew the relative sizes of the teams you would not think this... DirectX is the base for XNA Framework and is absolutely not getting its core support moved away.

What this thread started out regarding was the lack of community support for native DirectX in these forums vs the MSDN forums. There were very rarely any official support people even in the MSDN forums even before the change over. The native team appear to care little about indie developers, preferring to keep their support in official channels for the game studios rather than community forums. The XNA team is quite the opposite, since XNA GSE is community facing they are offering most of their support in the community forums. The contrast is stunningly obvious when you move from MSDN to XNA forums.

You are right that the few people who did offer support in the MSDN forums do appear to have been driven elsewhere by the passion of the XNA GSE community and/or the requirements for gamer tags. Beleive me the gamer tag requirement has been given to the MS guys loud and clear but at least for community support they obviously do not agree.

My best suggestion is to take your native questions to the semi official DirectXdev mailing list, gamedev.net directx forum or the Indiegame technical forums. Plus an email with your feelings to directx@microsoft.com may end up in some sympathetic ears.

I'm also locking this thread since its about 3 posts away from getting personal.

Since I have no way of getting in touch (even though I offered up my email when I deleted your 'censorship' thread), and you are obviously offended by the locking of the post I feel I should clarify why, if only so that others can learn.

I don't feel you were offensive, insulting or abusive in any way - that would have got posts deleted - nor did I accuse you of that. I felt that your final statement "Maybe you should learn assembly and then re-learn C and realize the difference between low level and high level languages" was encouraging a discussion that was going to BECOME personal. That's not constructive debate and after years of moderating these forums I know when to nip it in the bud.

I deleted the other post because complaining about censorship or moderation is off topic for every forum on this site. There is a 'report abuse' button on the bottom of every post if you have issues with the moderation. For the record, I'm not a Microsoft employee so its really not Microsoft performing the moderation - though they seem to support us pretty well. Feel free to spend time earning an MVP award so that you too can moderate forums.

To respond to your question in the gamedev thread directx@microsoft.com is not a personal support line to microsoft. Its a way to report bugs and concerns to the directx team. You rarely get responses, though I am assured that all emails are read and considered.

Since you like the sound of OpenGL here's the forums... http://www.opengl.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi they might be a bit more sympathetic than the people over on gamedev to your cries of Microsoft censorship.