Sorry if this isnt the best place to ask this but I am looking for information regarding how the major game development firms are taking to the .Net framework for their larger titles now that its been out for so long.

Most aren't. .NET is only about 7 or 8 years old. Lots of large game studios have C and C++ code bases at least twice that age, not to mention the large portion that use third party engines (such as Unreal Engine) which have upwards of a million or more lines of C and C++ code. It wouldn't make sense for them to rewrite all of that existing code to C# or C++/CLI given that .NET really won't afford them much benefit.

I hear some studios have taken to using XNA Game Studio for prototyping, but most likely aren't going to use it for any AAA retail titles. A few studios have used XNA Game Studio for XBLA (Rocket Riot, Schizoid, Dishwasher, and Blazing Birds are the ones I know), but I think it will be quite some time (if ever) that AAA retail titles use .NET.

Also keep in mind that unless a studio is only targeting the PC and the 360, then anything .NET isn't an option for them at all (there's no CLR on a PS3, after all).

MJP:

Also keep in mind that unless a studio is only targeting the PC and the 360, then anything .NET isn't an option for them at all (there's no CLR on a PS3, after all).

Actually I read somewhere that people were able to get Mono running on the PS3 on a dev kit. So it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. :)

Just throwing this out there; while no big game studios really use the .net framework for the actual games, a lot of them do use it for tools. In fact, C# has apparently adopted a big niche as a good tools programming language.

Big studios also use it for other things like Launcher programs. The Sims 3's launcher program is written entirely in the .net framework.

flimflam:

Just throwing this out there; while no big game studios really use the .net framework for the actual games, a lot of them do use it for tools. In fact, C# has apparently adopted a big niche as a good tools programming language.

Big studios also use it for other things like Launcher programs. The Sims 3's launcher program is written entirely in the .net framework.

yeah makes sense, its much easier to throw together a tool for one purpose or other with C# and Windows.Forms then it is in C++ trying to use the MFC (or, heaven forbid, trying to use Managed C++). i can throw together a simple tool for processing data in a half hour or so easy

Right now .net is not as easily portable like C++, a big reason for World of Goo's success is that it was able to release on a lot of platforms with relative ease because they worked with C++. Having them release on multiple platforms helped keep them in the media spotlight which increased their Windows sales...

Also there has always been this notion that .net is alot slower than C++, which is pretty critical with games.

Just my 2 cents

I agree with Nick. I have noticed several companies (Garage Games being one) that have been pushing the use of XNA and maybe at some point you might see an XNA based game become a AAA title, but I seriously doubt that an existing AAA engine would be scrapped for an unproven xna based engine (unproven as in no AAA titles)

Nick Gravelyn:

MJP:

Also keep in mind that unless a studio is only targeting the PC and the 360, then anything .NET isn't an option for them at all (there's no CLR on a PS3, after all).

Actually I read somewhere that people were able to get Mono running on the PS3 on a dev kit. So it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. :)

I don't think it is in the mono roadmap to support the XNA namespace since it is not a part of the standard .NET library. And it would imply to wrap everything with opengl. Anyway it would be very nice to get an XNA support in mono (and running linux on a PS3 in order to launch a game isn't the most convenient case for most of the players).


As of .NET AAA games, the only ones I know (and may not be considered as AAA regarding the aimed market) are Arena War and Arena War Reloaded (by the exDream studio, Benjamin Nitschke being the one behind the Racer starter kit, and wrote a book about it, he is no more active in the XNA community now). Those game were made thanks to MDX and are completly managed. exDream now has quit using .NET since they are aiming the PS3 plateform for their upcomming titles (in addition to PC/Xbox).

And as said, most studios just don't use .NET because of portability and because of all the middleware being C++. Code base is also a big factor, many studios are maintaining internal technologies for ages. Some studios don't even have the choice of technologies, they may be imposed by the owner company. .NET is still used, I know a bunch of french studios using it to develop many internal tools to support their main technology because of the quick and robust prototyping it offers. This goes for game editors, or things more commun like intranet, file management, project reporting etc.

XNA is designed for indies, and I think it is just well like this. The drawback I may found, is that it supports *only* Xbox and PC, which is still great for a visibility on the Xbox Live and possible to publish on Steam (one of the home of PC indies). But I think that the main problem is that PS3/Wii/DS don't really have comparable offer in terms of indie dev. WiiWare are mostly unreachable for indies the PSN is more restricted than the XLA is.

Why would they want to do this? I can't see any benefit of using XNA for large scale developments, and in my experience there is a crossover point where a game becomes sophisticated enough (from a technical standpoint) to be faster to produce in C++ (a hundred times more so if using middleware). And if a developer's target market is not Xbox/PC then XNA simply isn't an option. The only place I can see XNA succeeding is on XBLA, so long as you are sure from the outset that the game designer isn't going to want to exceed the capabilities of XNA further down the line of development.

I would also add that XNA may be considered for prototyping a Game Proposal in order to test the game concept or to present it to an editor.

OK guys. You need to stop throwing terms around. .Net is a library of classes released by microsoft. C# is a programming language. XNA is the xbox dev kit, while XNA Games Studio is for us community folks. Everyone who makes games for the xbox uses XNA. Gears of War and Halo, for example.

mpipe:

XNA is the xbox dev kit,

Nope....

XNA is the brand that encompasses all Microsoft game development technologies. It includes DirectX, the XDK (thats what the Xbox dev kit comes with) and XNA Game Studio and probably some other things I forgot. See http://www.xna.com/

mpipe:

Everyone who makes games for the xbox uses XNA. Gears of War and Halo, for example.

Since XDK and DirectX are under the XNA brand this is technically correct. However most of us, even the MVPs, gave up making this distinction a long time ago. There's is NOBODY in the industry outside of Microsoft who considers XNA anything except XNA Game Studio. If you say XNA to 99% of people they assume you mean XNA GS and XBLCG/IG.

Helmut:

Nick Gravelyn:

MJP:

Also keep in mind that unless a studio is only targeting the PC and the 360, then anything .NET isn't an option for them at all (there's no CLR on a PS3, after all).

Actually I read somewhere that people were able to get Mono running on the PS3 on a dev kit. So it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. :)

I don't think it is in the mono roadmap to support the XNA namespace since it is not a part of the standard .NET library. And it would imply to wrap everything with opengl. Anyway it would be very nice to get an XNA support in mono (and running linux on a PS3 in order to launch a game isn't the most convenient case for most of the players).

I didn't mean to imply that they would port the XNA Framework; just that someone had gotten Mono's CLR running on the PS3 (which was all MJP had mentioned).

The ZMan:

Nope....

XNA is the brand that encompasses all Microsoft game development technologies. It includes DirectX, the XDK (thats what the Xbox dev kit comes with) and XNA Game Studio and probably some other things I forgot. See http://www.xna.com/

Nick Gravelyn:

Helmut:

Nick Gravelyn:

MJP:

Also keep in mind that unless a studio is only targeting the PC and the 360, then anything .NET isn't an option for them at all (there's no CLR on a PS3, after all).

Actually I read somewhere that people were able to get Mono running on the PS3 on a dev kit. So it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility. :)

I don't think it is in the mono roadmap to support the XNA namespace since it is not a part of the standard .NET library. And it would imply to wrap everything with opengl. Anyway it would be very nice to get an XNA support in mono (and running linux on a PS3 in order to launch a game isn't the most convenient case for most of the players).

I didn't mean to imply that they would port the XNA Framework; just that someone had gotten Mono's CLR running on the PS3 (which was all MJP had mentioned).

Sorry, I misunderstood that point :) (and made an awkward quote).

Maybe .net 4.0 will change everything.
What I am thinking along those lines is true mulitcore programming. if .Net 4.0 makes it easy to abstract out a true multicore code and thus makes it easy to make a multicore 3d engine that might change everything.


Then again I think a few of the big names already have a multicore engine not built on .Net.

Helmut:

I would also add that XNA may be considered for prototyping a Game Proposal in order to test the game concept or to present it to an editor.

this could be a huge entry point for .Net.

Speaking for myself I almost always use my prototype code to move forward on production code (as a business dev).

Without knowing the specifics my hunch (based on many reactions I have seen as a business dev) is that people still associate Microsoft with VB and they just dont take it seriously. Granted in business apps its a TON better than it used to be but I think its bias more than it is existing code base which mostly is trash now anyway given multicore