Hello all,

I'd like to get feedback on my next project: Avatar Platformer. It is a retro 2D platformer that allows you to build your own levels, share them with other users over Xbox LIVE, and play through them with your own Avatar. I've uploaded a video to YouTube here (although it may take a few minutes for it to finish "processing").

I still need to implement scoring, enemies, a way to finish levels, more tiles, sound, and P2P level sharing, though I'm not entirely sure what kind of enemies I'll use yet. Then it should be ready for Playtest.

Any suggestions or feedback would be great! (I'm also looking for ideas on a name, since while descriptive, "Avatar Platformer" sounds kind of generic.)

That looks really cool... people seem to like the avatar thing too, I think you might be on to a winning formula.

I'm not sure on a name, but if you really want to sell people on the fact that you're using avatars, then Avatar should be part of it IMO.

Kris Steele:

I'm not sure on a name, but if you really want to sell people on the fact that you're using avatars, then Avatar should be part of it IMO.

I disagree. Show an avatar on the box. That'll get the point across. Anything with "avatar" in it just sounds amateurish and cheap to me. Avatar Bowling, Avatar Golf, Avatar Platformer, Avatar Drop, Avatar Shopping, Avatar Shoe Maker, etc will all sound really boring and generic after the first one or two. Pick a name for the game just like it was any other game. In other words, forget that it has avatars and pick a name for it.


As for the game, it looks like a solid enough idea. I definitely think working in avatars is a good thing. Might want to work a little on the animations for the avatars, especially while in air. Have his arms move a little and his feet move a little. Maybe even transition him at his peak to a more "landing" position. He just looks too stiff and uninteresting.

You might also consider a different visual style for the world. While the retro look is fun, it clashes with the rim-lit 3D avatar. Maybe do a retro 3D look by using a 2D editor but then turn all the tiles into 3D cubes in the game, texturing them with some retro looking textures. I feel like that might be a better fit graphically, but even then you might want to ditch the retro textures and just try to match the avatar. I know you might want retro, but since you want avatars you might want to weigh the two sides in order to make a game that looks more cohesive and visually appealing.

The avatar is a bit small on the screen, IMO, which may or may not be a good thing. Depends on how you imagine people making levels and such.

I'm also of the belief that you should move away from the "Mario with avatars" vibe it has. The item that makes you bigger for instance, and even the sprites for the world remind me too much of Mario. I'm not telling you this because of any IP issues, but as a gamer I couldn't help but feel that this was too much derivative of another game instead of trying to be a game on its own.

But otherwise you're off to a good start. :)

Looks decent so far.

It's too early along for me to tell whether you have a direction you're planning to take it, but I'd definitely agree with Nick that you should be careful to avoid any sort of "it's like Mario" feel, unless you plan to surpass the Mario games, in which case you should go for it :)

The only thing I'd beg you *not* to do is give it floaty, LBP-like physics. I like gravity in my games! ;)

- Ben

Is your Avatar wrapper class for the PC ready?

That looks great!

I know it's only a quick test, but, here are some early suggestions.

1) Don't zoom the camera out so much! Compare this to what you have.

2) Don't make 'Super Avatar Bros'. Give your game it's own personality. It looks like you are just remaking SMB1 there.

The level editor looks cool.

Only issue is the marrio bros IP thing.

If its just to demo your idea then its fine, but before release you will have to rethink what makes your platformer work.
No point making the game to have it pulled for IP viloation.

moltione:

No point making the game to have it pulled for IP viloation.

What IP? He's using avatars, not images of Mario or enemies from what I saw. A quick search for "Mario gameplay patent" didn't turn up anything that I saw, which would be the only thing that this could be compared to and we can't fail for that.

It certainly makes me think Super Mario Brothers when i saw the video, but until I see koopas and goombas walking around, I think you're safe. A lot of people really like Super Mario Brothers and I don't think it would be a bad thing to include similar looking blocks so users can create their own Mario-Like levels (I'm certain there would be interest in that).

Awww, you beat me to it :p

I was thinking of doing something very similar recently (after my current projects), but looks like you beat me to the punch. Looking forward to seein how this turns out. Although be prepared for people to compare this to LBP when you release it :P

Here is another option for a level editor. Something like this might go better with an avatar than a tiled map. This is pretty simple though and it doesn't
show anything other than how to place tiles. You could also use tiles and use something like this for the backgrounds.

http://gametuto.com/in-game-c-map-editor-tutorial-with-indielib-engine-that-dosent-use-tiles-but-pieced-images-like-in-braid-or-aquaria-games/

Thanks a lot for all the feedback guys!

I'm not sure how I could avoid a "Mario feel" in this sort of game. The Mario formula is actually pretty generic when you think about it: "run and jump through levels, breaking blocks and stomping on enemies" is kind of tough to not replicate without making an entirely different kind of game. I've played a lot of platformers, both classic and modern, and at least for me nothing really touches the Mario series, and for a long time I've wanted to do a similar game.

So while it's not directly "Super Avatar Bros.", it does draw a lot of inspiration from that series with it's level design and gameplay mechanics. I still need to come up with some enemies (that aren't turtles ;) ) that will help differentiate while still keeping the gameplay intact, because I don't want to stray too far from the basic formula since a lot of platformers I've tried feel like they're either very similar to Mario or are an entirely different type of sub genre (such as the Sonic series).

As Jim Perry has said, I had done a quick search and I don't see any patents or  possible IP violations... Without going into legal advice, when you break it down the  gameplay mechanics are extremly generic, and since I'm not ripping sprites from the games I don't belive there will be any issues with that.

One thing I am working on is a 3D mode that you can toggle on or off at any time, which will draw everything in 3D. I'm having a lot of trouble getting it to sync up correctly, but if I can get that working with any reliability I think it will be a really neat addition, and might fit with the Avatars' look better.

On the topic of fitting in with the Avatar's rim lit look, I don't know if you can really see it or not but what I'm doing is drawing the Avatar to a low res rendertarget and then scaling it up to get a vaugely 8-bit retro look for the Avatar. I'll post some close up screens of that later since I need to know if this would possibly be  against the Avatar review guidelines. It says not to alter their appearance, which  technically I'm not since I'm drawing the entire Avatar to a rendertarget, and then drawing that image again without any changes. Your Avatar still looks like your Avatar, it just kind of looks like it was filmed with a cell phone camera or something.  I can easily use a higher resolution texture to remove the effect, but I really like the retro effect it gives, so I'd like your "Peer Reviewer mode" opinions on that point as well.

I might add some kind of door and key system (like in Being) or other puzzle type elements so that more interesting levels can be developed. Other than that the basic engine is complete, so it should all come together pretty quickly.

@Daaark: I forgot to show it in the demo, but you can zoom in and out to whatever  level you like. That area still needs to be tweaked since I'm debating wether to give  the player full control over the camera zoom and possibly wreck puzzles and traps  in the process, or try and implement some kind of automatic zoom which will be very difficult since you can make your own levels... I'm leaning towards the former right now.

@cannonfodder696: That's very interesting! However I would really like to stick with tiles for this, especially since I've already spent a lot of time perfecting the collision detection system which won't work with anything other than standard tiles.

Thanks again for all of the feedback and encouragement!

(I was having problems with my internet connection so I wrote this in notepad, and for some reason there are a bunch of double spaces between words - hopefully I fixed most of them)

UberGeekGames:

I'm not sure how I could avoid a "Mario feel" in this sort of game. The Mario formula is actually pretty generic when you think about it: "run and jump through levels, breaking blocks and stomping on enemies" is kind of tough to not replicate without making an entirely different kind of game. I've played a lot of platformers, both classic and modern, and at least for me nothing really touches the Mario series, and for a long time I've wanted to do a similar game.

There are alot of directions you could go that would distance your game from Mario, while still maintaining the overall feel that you're looking for.  For example, I'd scrap the idea of getting bigger when you pick up a powerup.

I think primarily, you're going to need to add alot of objects into the game that can be interacted with.  From simple stuff like spring platforms or portals, to more complex stuff like vehicles or animals to ride.  (I'm thinking something like Yoshi in Super Mario World, or the stuff in Donkey Kong Country.)  If you don't have enough interesting gadgets, the levels, and level editing get repetetive and boring very quickly.

That's not to say you need a full blown physics system like Little Big Planet so that people can make whatever they want, but the more options your players have, the better.  But also, the more complex it is for you to test all the possible permutations.

What I'd really like to see is some sort of simple trigger based scripting system.  (To enable things like platforms that don't start moving until the player stands on them, for example.)  No idea how you make that easy to use, and it's probably a huge amount of work.  Ah well.

Good luck.  I look forward to seeing what you come up with.  I loves me a good platformer. :)

UberGeekGames:

I might add some kind of door and key system (like in Being)

Man, that game was so good, I wish I could buy it twice. :P

Uber, did you do some improvements to Avatar Wrapper after I sent you that last e-mail ? =)

About the game, looks promissing, just don´t "copy & paste " Mario, have your own style ;)

Chounard:

I think primarily, you're going to need to add alot of objects into the game that can be interacted with.  From simple stuff like spring platforms or portals, to more complex stuff like vehicles or animals to ride.  (I'm thinking something like Yoshi in Super Mario World, or the stuff in Donkey Kong Country.)  If you don't have enough interesting gadgets, the levels, and level editing get repetetive and boring very quickly.

You're right. It's a fine line I'm trying to balance without getting a bad case of feature creep. I will definitely add springs, possibly doors and keys and maybe teleporters or something (I can't really have warp pipes now can I ;) ), but I think an event scripting system might be out of the scope of this project... Especially given how Kodu hasn't fared that well on XBLIG, I'm trying to give players a handful of objects that can be used in a wide variety of ways quickly and easily, rather than a really in depth system that could be used to make anything but takes a while to learn.

Also I'm toying with the idea of allowing them to set the background and color tint - think in SMB where you go underground, it uses the same tiles but with a dark blue tint.

Rodrigo Cardoso:

Uber, did you do some improvements to Avatar Wrapper after I sent you that last e-mail ? =)

Not really, it uses pretty much the same AW that's out there with a few small tweaks to make it look better in a 2D setting.

I've gotten the 3D effect sort-of working, now I just need to sync up the zoom with both the 2D and 3D views so the objects are roughly in the same position on screen no matter what view you're in. I'll hopefully be able to get a new video up in the next few days to showcase that.

Looks promising.

I like the Mario Brosness, but you would need to change it up a bit (as everyone has said). Remember, parodies are fair game, though no one ever does it with video games very much anymore.

Also, may I suggest you use chiptune music? That would make this game 1000 times cooler in my book. If you want to go retro, go all the way. I've been learning chiptune lately, but there are far more impressive people than me. May I suggest you check out http://8bitcollective.com/ if that is allowed. Lots of chiptuners there with great music.

Keep up the good work, and if you need beta tests, sign me up!

Thanks.

There was never a hesitation in my mind that I would use some kind of retro 8-bit background music! That site is really cool - it looks like I would need to get the consent of the author to use it in a commercial work, so it might be an option.

This should be ready for early playtesting soon, so thanks for the offer!

I have the 3D mode mostly working, and am now working on doors. I've opted to have color coded doors with switches attached to them, that toggle them open and close. That should allow for some interesting puzzle levels. I'll get a new video up today or tomorrow that shows this.

I've uploaded a trailer that shows off the newest features: trailer

Some random notes:

1) Textures are placeholder and will be improved, along with more and better 3D models
2) You can zoom in and out whenever you want, as you can see in the video
3) You can switch between 2D and 3D when playing whenever you want, and the action matches up between them very well except for some small inconsistencies at large zoom amounts
4) The animations randomly jerk to the new animation, and the game stutters, due to a crashing bug in the XNA Framework itself with the AvatarRenderer. I've put it in Connect and ZMan has passed a repro project onto the team, so hopefully they're working on it
5) The video quality is still terrible - must get capture card

The one thing I'm not sure of is what kind of enemies to use, that will keep the core SMB1-esque gameplay without being too similar, if that makes sense.

All feedback and suggestions are welcome!

Looking good!

Enemy Ideas:

1. Other Avatars
2. Avatar Heads (NOT decapatation, MadBalls Revenge did it similar)
3. Z0MBIES!
4. Parodies of Mario/Sonic/Halo/Gears characters
5. Vegetables, because they are still pissed about SMB2.
6. Zombie Vegetables...
7. Cats! EVERYONE loves cats!
8. LOLcats to be exact
9. Vampires
10. Xbox 360 controllers
11. Faces of the Xbox 360 team (major nelson ect.)
12. Mustaches with eyeballs
13. MUSTACHED ZOMBIE CATS!!!!!!!!!!!!! FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH ZOMBIE AVATAR HEADS LEADING THEM ON LEASHES! ZOMG BBQ FTW!?!?  

Thanks, those are some good ideas.

Avatar heads probably wouldn't be allowed based on what I've read in other threads about that, but enemy Avatars wouldn't be a bad idea. And how about mustached zombies wielding plungers?..

Lots of cool things I could do with this; it will probably come down to what kind of free art assets I can find on the internet so we'll see where it goes from there.

this is looking really nice!  I have one suggestion for the editor:

Hey, if you ever want a conceptual partner let me know! I'm no programmer, but damn it, can I brain storm and do flow charts.

You impressed me again! First time something with avatars make me interested.

Name suggestions:
-Jumpman (the original name of mario, maybe already copyrighted)
-MyPlatform
-Platform360
-Uber Jump
-Retro Jumper
-Avatarman
-Super You World (I like this one, but there is a risk that the Nintendo lawyers will pant in your neck)
-Super U World
-Uman

Thanks for the feedback!

PixelFriends: Good catch. I'll definitively add that and see if I can simplify the process any to make it as easy as possible to make levels.

DimmuJed: Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

Viking: Thanks, those are some really good names! I'll do some looking around to see what may or may not be a problem, but after Super You World I think AvatarMan is the next best one, maybe even a tie - I'll ask around here and see what opinions I get. Maybe later if I'm still stuck I could get XboxIndies to run one of their competitions for choosing it...

I have more ideas:

User content games are overrated, if you don't deliver the game with a bunch of level, I think you are bound to fail. Why don't you make a level editor and let us on the community help you make some of them.

About the user content. I would put in a secret code in the game (like press F1 on the keyboard, get the text-input-guide and write the code there), with that you could confirm you and your friends as Admin, as admin you can put stars on games that people made and that you recommend - that will make it easier to find the goodies for the user.

It would be cool if you had a simple enemy editor.
tip1 - combining simple body parts to a monster of some kind. Also make it possible to change some colors, health and weak points.
tip2 - make a 16x16 pixel draw area. Make fun, simple pixel monsters ('pixel monster' sounds like a fun game). Do 3d-blocks from the pixels. You can then let the player either add wheels or wings to it's movement.