That's right, Adobe has made it so that Flash CS5 will be able to export Flash games as iPhone apps: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Applications_for_iPhone

The iPhone market is already saturated and now the ultra-saturated Flash game market on PC will be able to cross right into the iPhone. So what do you get? Absolutely no chance in hell for an Indie Developer trying to make a profit on iPhone unless they are already established in one of those markets.

So what's that have to do with XNA? Well, with iPhone now completely out, XNA is now the best option for people wanting to get out of the Flash market but not doing enough to get into the XBLA, PSN, WiiWare or Steam markets. XNA effectively corners the market on that demographic of game developers.


Technology is constantly evolving and to be successful as an Indie trying to make a profit you have to balance yourself ahead of the over-saturated casual amateur developer market but below the serious triple A professionals market. I suspect that eventually the casual amateurs will get into Indie Games and similar initiatives on the consoles (whenever they may come).

With triple A games like Shadow Complex creeping into XBLA and iPhone development entering a whole new level of saturation that 'balance' is closing in on itself. For me though the message is pretty clear. Get big or get out! Although previous games I've developed have just got me by, the success with my XBLI game has given me the time I need to develop a much larger game intended for XBLA. It won't be an easy jump, but for a serious Indie developer, definitely worth trying. The Clover team has the right idea too with Blitz, well done to them!

(I need a blog)

 

The strength of XNA and XBLIG lies in the XBox part imo.
XBLIG Indie developers can reach the complete Xbox console market with their game. And have the power of a complete console at their disposal.

And the competition with XBLA games is indeed hard. But Indie games shouldn't be competitive with triple A games,
but rather be a seperate platform for games which are original,fresh and interesting and doesn't fit inside a box,
and with new ideas where big companies dare not tread.

Therefore i don't agree with your slogan: "Get big or get out", I would rather say "Get original and get in!" ;-)

Of course many developers will launch games which are just some sort of clones or just lack originality, but if you are original and have a fresh concept you will stand out of the crowd and still get noticed.
When a market get saturated, the games with good quality and/or original gameplay/concept will still be noticed, and this means indeed that indies which are trying to make money with another tower defense/snake/tetris/gradius or whatever type of clone will have a rough time making some money.

I think eventually the quality of games in a saturated market will just go up.
And yes the life of an indie developer is hard, and will never get any easier, but if you just believe in your game and concept, you will just might get there... ;-)

I think your position is quite correct as well. Two things Indies can do I guess, try and get to higher ground to avoid the casual developers flood by getting on to platforms that casual developers can't, or do what you do and prepare for the flood with enough good design and originality to keep your head above the rising waters.

I found that a lot recently, I developed a few quick (<2 weeks dev time) Flash games and they didn't do to well. They were original, but the kind of original where you make interesting modifications to existing genres. Where as what Indies need to do is make people question "What genre does that go in?".

Still though, I'd rather spend my battle in the development trying to make it as good as the other XBLA games, rather than spending the battle after release trying to get it noticed. Personal preference I guess :)

Flash for iPhone is an interesting prospect but you still need a Mac to compile the apps if you want to sell them on the App Store, so there is still going to be a somewhat large amount of money that needs to be spent to get started (I'm assuming most of us here are Windows users). And you still need to use AT&T as your provide, which I personally hate and is the sole reason that I haven't bought an iPhone myself.

In a more general sense, and it's been said in this thread already, I believe the biggest draw of developing XBLIGs is the fact that you're developing them for a major console. You've got significantly more power than on the iPhone or Flash games. It's a lot easier to distribute your games than it would be on PC (where you need to do a lot more marketing yourself, sell your game to portals, setup a payment website, etc).

I think there are going to be some large games that succeed on XBLIGs but I think the vast majority of successful developers (from a monitary standpoint) are going to be the ones that can make fun, original concepts that aren't overall that big (thus can be sold for 80 points and developed in just a few months).

I'm hopeful that a few breakout titles ('I mad3 a game' already) will help promote the service as well, and I think as each developer releases their own games, they will build their own audience and that will help subsequent releases. I've got 60 or so Twitter followers and 20 or so unique visitors each day to my website since releasing Nasty, which is something I didn't have before releasing that game. I've got several media/press contacts I've made thus far which will also help promote my future releases.

See Silversprite (XNA->Silverlight for 2D games only) and the opensource XNATouch (running on MonoTouch [commercial] and opensource code from MonoXNA and Silversprite) at Codeplex. There are channels already for making one's XNA games more portable. Hope they grow more mature in the future (why not also see FlashXNA or something?)

Kris Steele:

Flash for iPhone is an interesting prospect but you still need a Mac to compile the apps if you want to sell them on the App Store,

Nope. You can build them in Windows too: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Applications_for_iPhone#What_operating_systems_are_supported_for_authoring_iPhone_content_using_Flash.3F

Kris Steele:

And you still need to use AT&T as your provide, which I personally hate and is the sole reason that I haven't bought an iPhone myself.

You could get an iPod touch and be set, too.

Nick Gravelyn:

Kris Steele:

Flash for iPhone is an interesting prospect but you still need a Mac to compile the apps if you want to sell them on the App Store,

Nope. You can build them in Windows too: http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Applications_for_iPhone#What_operating_systems_are_supported_for_authoring_iPhone_content_using_Flash.3F

Kris Steele:

And you still need to use AT&T as your provide, which I personally hate and is the sole reason that I haven't bought an iPhone myself.

You could get an iPod touch and be set, too.

When I asked someone about this before, they stated that you needed a Mac to correctly compile the code so that it can be sold on the App Store. If that's not the case (and this page seems to indicate that), then this is great news.

I should consider an iPod touch... already carry a phone with me so I didn't really want to buy a second device, but given my distaste for AT&T, this might be the only good workaround. I'll consider it... still hoping Microsoft will announce something soon about XNA on Windows Mobile too (or announce that it won't happen).

Kris Steele:

I should consider an iPod touch... already carry a phone with me so I didn't really want to buy a second device, but given my distaste for AT&T, this might be the only good workaround. I'll consider it... still hoping Microsoft will announce something soon about XNA on Windows Mobile too (or announce that it won't happen).

Heresy! This is the XNA forum! You're supposed to want a Zune HD! :)

XNA does work on the Zune and Zune HD, which I think (purely conjecture!) is probably as portable as they want to go. I suspect (also purely conjecture!) that it's more likely that Windows Mobile and Zune will merge than that XNA will be ported to Windows Mobile.

Studio Hunty:

Heresy! This is the XNA forum! You're supposed to want a Zune HD! :)

Until Microsoft offers an app store for it and has a decent amount of people that buy from that store, I don't really see any point to developing for Zune.

I don't care how I get XNA support, be it a merged Zune OS or an evolution of the Windows Mobile OS, as long as I do get it. It seems like such a no-brainer, they have to give it to us, don't they?

Kris Steele:

I don't care how I get XNA support, be it a merged Zune OS or an evolution of the Windows Mobile OS, as long as I do get it. It seems like such a no-brainer, they have to give it to us, don't they?

Well they announced the Windows Mobile 6.5 (I think it was 6.5, though maybe it's not until 7) store that was coming, so clearly they see the point in an open app store set up for Windows mobile. Gaming has been huge on the iPhone and iPod touch so hopefully Microsoft is taking that into account. But as far as whether we'll get XNA GS or we'll have to use a different API, your guess is as good as mine. Nothing has been announced at this point.

6.5 and this is the old marketplace http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/catalog/cataloghome.aspx gripping stuff eh? Looks like a great competitor to apple store ;-)

The new one will be availalbe here https://marketplace.windowsphone.com/Overview.aspx but right now you can only see it from a 6.5 based phone.

Developers register here... http://developer.windowsphone.com/Marketplace.aspx $99 a year but thats about as far as I got looking. There's certainly no XNA path.