Suppose it's more like a lot of "whats" but here goes.

Im working on my first game: "Larsey's Tower Defence". Crappy title but it's the working title. My goal is atm having fun and progress to a state where I feel that the game is a "demo" and I would want to release it. And in terms of "releasing" I mean get it out there. XBOX and pc.

Now: I've been browsing this site and forum and I really miss some workflows. What is the process when I feel the game is finished? And do I have to to the forms for making money when I was hoping getting it released for free?

As I understand it, microsoft is going to charge XBOX users 80 gamepoints anyway to users downloading it... so IF I'm going to release something I just as well go and do the financial moneyforms stuff for earning money on the game?

I am a single programmer, and right now all the artwork in the game is based on the RPG 2D starter kit. Can I still get the game out on the 360 when my game's artwork is based on that artwork? And will I earn money on it? I don't expect to earn money on a game where all the artwork is from a starterkit, it is just to sort it all out. Maybe if the answere is no to earning money-when-the-artwork-is-a-starter-kit, I'll go ahead and get some other artwork if i feel the game is good. But at the moment my main goal is to get something out there :-)

Larsey:

a state where I feel that the game is a "demo" and I would want to release it. And in terms of "releasing" I mean get it out there. XBOX and pc.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you're thinking of releasing to Xbox Live Indie Games, then think about making it a complete game, not a demo. The XBLIG channel is a channel for games, not demos

You're right, you can't release it for free on XBLIG. Read the FAQ, to see about making money.
But nothing is stopping you from releasing however you want it for the PC.

Larsey:

I am a single programmer, and right now all the artwork in the game is based on the RPG 2D starter kit. Can I still get the game out on the 360 when my game's artwork is based on that artwork?

Yes, read the license that comes with the starter kit.

Larsey:

And will I earn money on it?

If anyone buys it, then yes, you will earn money for it.

Catalin Zima:

I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you're thinking of releasing to Xbox Live Indie Games, then think about making it a complete game, not a demo. The XBLIG channel is a channel for games, not demos

Non bubble bursted. I should have explained "demo". When i say demo i mean a full game with maybe max 3 levels (since its a towerdefencegame). That would be ok?

Catalin Zima:

Yes, read the license that comes with the starter kit.

From the license:
...each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license under its licensed patents to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the contribution in the software...
Im not good at lawstuff, but this grants me all rights, to do anything I want?

Larsey:

Im not good at lawstuff, but this grants me all rights, to do anything I want?

I cannot confirm or deny that, because that would be legal advice, and legal advice is not allowed in these forums. You can either trust your interpretation of the rules, or seek a lawyer. My personal interpretation is that you can use the source/assets for commercial purposes.

Larsey:

That would be ok?

The question is really: "Would you buy that game?" or "Would other people buy that game?"
Always think of your XBLIG releases as a real game, on a real market. That's what I meant by "complete games, not demos". That when you put something out there, to be able to say: "This is my game, and I think you should buy it!"

thanks for your replies.

Catalin Zima:

I cannot confirm or deny that, because that would be legal advice, and legal advice is not allowed in these forums. You can either trust your interpretation of the rules, or seek a lawyer. My personal interpretation is that you can use the source/assets for commercial purposes.

this calls for a OH MY GOD? Advice on stuff that is on creators.xna.com? I understand this forum can't be involved in legal advice ragarding every body elses stuff, but their own. Common!

One little line would be enough: "You can do whatever you like with this, if you get filthy rich we wont come after you". Not that I could get rich on a tileset that is downloadable for everybody (everybody could make the same game, almost).

Now im getting sceptical. Maybe I should just skip the whole XBOX release. It's too much of a hassle. I'm a programmer that likes games(and gameprogramming) and just want to have something to show for on my CV. Refferencing to a game that I've made and that it has XXX downloads is really all i want.

Larsey:

this calls for a OH MY GOD? Advice on stuff that is on creators.xna.com? I understand this forum can't be involved in legal advice ragarding every body elses stuff, but their own. Common!

THEY (Microsoft) can give legal advice on their own stuff. I am not employed by Microsoft, or in any way tied to their legal departments, so I cannot give you any sort of legal advice. But the license is pretty much clear in what it says.

Larsey:

Maybe I should just skip the whole XBOX release. It's too much of a hassle. I'm a programmer that likes games(and gameprogramming) and just want to have something to show for on my CV. Refferencing to a game that I've made and that it has XXX downloads is really all i want.

If that's what you feel like, go ahead and skip it. Plenty of people are glad that such a unique opportunity is given to them, to release a game of their own on a console. Good luck finding a distribution method and such a large target audience on the PC. You just don't realize how lucky you are that you live in a supported country and can benefit from this channel. Yes, there's some stuff to do and things to work on, but it's a small price to pay for everything else you get here.

Larsey:

Now im getting sceptical. Maybe I should just skip the whole XBOX release. It's too much of a hassle. I'm a programmer that likes games(and gameprogramming) and just want to have something to show for on my CV. Refferencing to a game that I've made and that it has XXX downloads is really all i want.

If you're finding this too much of a hassle then you're probably going down the wrong path.

SteveJstone:

Larsey:

Now im getting sceptical. Maybe I should just skip the whole XBOX release. It's too much of a hassle. I'm a programmer that likes games(and gameprogramming) and just want to have something to show for on my CV. Refferencing to a game that I've made and that it has XXX downloads is really all i want.

If you're finding this too much of a hassle then you're probably going down the wrong path.

What does that have anything to do with it?

Thing is, i wonder about something. that something is if the starterkit can be used to anything, without me being put on trail for breaking some copyright law.

All I need to know: can i use the starterkit with full rights, even (dont think ill go that far with my first project) make money on a game based on the artwork? Because i dont want to invest alot of time in the game and the artwork and at the end not be able to publish it as i want. I understand PERFECTLY well that if im serious i should get my own gameart. but this is my first project, where i want to test the platform out and maybe (if im satisfied with it) publish it.

But if microsoft need to wrap it in some mist, we-sue-if-you-if-you-make-money-but-please-use-if-you-front-microsoft-for-free then something is terribly wrong. sry. They should put this in plain text in the licens, not everybody has a degree from lawschool... but i guess this is how the big corps do business. Feel free to front them in a positive way, but if you make money on it we might sue because we can. They are right to protect whats theirs, but dont wrap something in i mist that is hard to read and could have multiple solutions.

Larsey:

Now im getting sceptical. Maybe I should just skip the whole XBOX release. It's too much of a hassle. I'm a programmer that likes games(and gameprogramming) and just want to have something to show for on my CV. Refferencing to a game that I've made and that it has XXX downloads is really all i want.

I'd say that successfully publishing a game that has gone through an external review process (peer-review) not only looks better on the resume, it also gives you more talking points in an interview (you know how to respond to external feedback and are familiar with a QA process) than any number of downloads.

Larsey:

not everybody has a degree from lawschool...

Exactly. Why would you trust me, or anyone else in the forums to tell you what the license means? We don't have a lawschool degree either. And if I said yes, and the license said otherwise (it doesn't in this case, but we're talking hypothetically here), and you would reach a court of law, would you use "but a random person on the internet said I could do this" to defend yourself? Seriously, all I said was "yes, you can do what you want, but go and read the license and consult a lawyer if it's not clear enough for you", because I'm not a legal consultant for you to place your trust in me.

The license is clear enough to understand. Microsoft will not come for you, and you're free to use the starter kit as you see fit (of course, you can't submit them to XBLIG without any modifications). There's no "mist" around that license. But at the same time, I can't spell it out for you, because it's not my place to do so.

They're not out to get anyone. They give away loads of stuff, for FREE, just to educate and expand this community. I'm done with this discussion. If you want to continue being paranoid do so, I don't care.

One question of Larsey's which hasn't been addressed is this one:

Larsey:

What is the process when I feel the game is finished?

The answer would be: When you feel that the game is finished, put it into Playtest here on the website. Do not put it into review for publication immediately. Put it into Playtest first. Because as many others here you will then see, that there probably were a few bugs you overlooked (nothing to be ashamed of, it happens to all of us here!) and finding those in playtest is much better than finding them in review! :-)
The additional advantage with playtest is, that any non-technical problems with the game may also be found there. There's no guarantee for that of course, but if you've been in playtest for a few weeks, then you can be much more confident that there is indeed no problem with your game. For example, if starter-kit based games were not allowed (which is not the case), someone would most likely point this out during playtest.

Doc

As for 'when is it finished'. I would ask people to think of the platform as a whole. Sure we like to see different and experimental games there - thats the point of indie games. But we also need people to have more pride in their work. Its not a place to put half finished demos or games with a couple of minutes of gameplay. Remember this is a commercial platform - you are expecting people to pay for your work. Uploading rubbish makes you look bad and even worse makes the whole platform look bad. Its not a place to upload something as a resume demo - build a website for that. Its not a place to upload something you put together in a day jsut to say 'hey I have a game on xbox' - upload the windows vesion somewhere...

Have some pride - ask yourself if you would stand next to your game at a gamer conference like PAX and proudly say 'come play this - I made it'. How do you thing the gamers would react?

Catalin Zima:

Exactly. Why would you trust me, or anyone else in the forums to tell you what the license means? We don't have a lawschool degree either. And if I said yes, and the license said otherwise (it doesn't in this case, but we're talking hypothetically here), and you would reach a court of law, would you use "but a random person on the internet said I could do this" to defend yourself? Seriously, all I said was "yes, you can do what you want, but go and read the license and consult a lawyer if it's not clear enough for you", because I'm not a legal consultant for you to place your trust in me.

I dont trust you, altho being a MVP and have alot of experience(posts) on this forum helps your cause :D If a lot of people says its okey, then i trust the community. but if like 10 ppl say ok, and (only) 1 says he/she had recived a mail from microsoft that "it aint happening since you use this artwork", ill have to think about it. I just wanted some user feedback. If nobody had experienced any problems its all ok.

About "trusting" the community im fully going to be responsible for my own actions. Im not going to blame "a random person".

Catalin Zima:

The license is clear enough to understand. Microsoft will not come for you, and you're free to use the starter kit as you see fit...

Thank you. I'll hold you 100% responsible if i get _any_ law issues.

Catalin Zima:

They're not out to get anyone. They give away loads of stuff, for FREE, just to educate and expand this community. I'm done with this discussion. If you want to continue being paranoid do so, I don't care.

Im also done with this discussion. I hope i did not come out as a paranoid-the-state-is-watching-me, i just respect other peoples work and want to do it right (the first time around).

to everybody, thank you for your replies.

Larsey:

Thank you. I'll hold you 100% responsible if i get _any_ law issues.

:P

Sorry if I was harsh but you did indeed seem a little paranoid for thinking MS are after you, after all the hard work being done by the XNA team.

I wish you good luck on your game.