DrMistry:

That is clearly a reason not to submit apps to the service.  I can see no couterargument which holds water.

Counterargument:  XBox gamers ALSO like NON-games.

That absolutely holds water.





You know, we could just allow developers to choose at Peer Review submittal, whether or not they want to include Achievements.
If not, the game goes straight through (without achievements) as it currently does.
If so, then the Peer Review process would be tailored to a review of a title that includes achievements.

This is the best of both worlds.
Games could simply include a statement or symbol in their description that notifies the gamer if this game does/doesn't include achievements.

WolRon:

You know, we could just allow developers to choose at Peer Review submittal, whether or not they want to include Achievements.

As long as what they include Achievements in is a game, since MS isn't going to allow them in non-games, based on the quote in the first post. I can't see why a developer would choose to not include them in a game though as it can only help their sales.

(picks up schoolbag and sulks off) **mutter mutter**

Fair enough, I got a bit carried away earlier.  I just thought it would be nice to be proactive in light of the quote rather than see devs working for weeks/months on apps of whatever quality, only to have the rug pulled out from under them if/when they're put at a disadvantage by not having achievements or being blocked all together.

Regards,
Mike

DrMistry:

(picks up schoolbag and sulks off) **mutter mutter**

I wouldn't be too discouraged if I were you.  If anything, this thread simply makes an undeniably strong case that there definitely needs to be additional rules put into place should Microsoft choose to allow achievements and leader boards for XBLIG.  I personally doubt MS will solicit our opinions on what those rules should be.  At the end of the day, I suspect they'll do what they always do -- make some executive decisions and move forward.  Judging from this thread, I'm sure there will be some (maybe even a lot of) butt hurt, because the new rules will require subjectivity and there will be people who are suddenly on the outside looking in.  However, they will eventually get over it and life will be good on the XBLIG channel.

So... what about letting indie games give out achievements that have 0 gamerscore? Then, each achievement is just a shiny little badge, with no effect other than to say "yay, I did it!"

We've had that debate before, and George and I talked to the xbox mvps about it... after they had stopped laughing they explained that nobody would care... its ALL about the score.

The ZMan:

its ALL about the score.

For some. I'm not a big Xbox fanatic player, but, for example, I do play City of Heroes, and collect all the badges I can in the game - including the ones with zero tangible benefits.

The ZMan:

they explained that nobody they and some others would not care

Heh. After interacting with some of them, I no longer wonder why Live sucks as bad as it does as far as people on it. :(

The fact that Xbox MVPs couldn't get Rock Band set up correctly was a ROFL bonus moment!

I usually like getting achievements just for the sake of getting them. The score is a bonus.

The ZMan:

...its ALL about the score.

Jim Perry:

The ZMan:

they explained that nobody they and some others would not care

Heh. After interacting with some of them, I no longer wonder why Live sucks as bad as it does as far as people on it. :(

I usually like getting achievements just for the sake of getting them. The score is a bonus.

You are a rarity... I've talked to other non MVPs - its the 1st thing they ask... I know George talked to many gamers at PAX with the same result.

In my very unscientific survey it was all about the score - sure they like acievements too but without the score most it wont make a difference.

The whole idea of GS has made the Xbox the top console. Proven that when choosing games gamers will purchase the xbox version if available because of the GS. If we are able to use GS that would be a HUGE plus.

I am certain the team will figure out how to add it, as for the crappy games and apps, that bird has flown.

The ZMan:

You are a rarity

Interesting, considering it's one of the four types of gamer in the original Bartle test, generally describing about 20-25% of respondents in a survey using the Bartle test gamer types as categories.

I'd not heard of that before so I went and looked it up.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test seems like its measuring more about how people play MMORPGs and MUDs than anything else.

My surveys have certainly not been scientific though - and yes I'm sure there are other people like Jim... But in the XBLIG forum, the MVP summit and people I talked to at PAX what I heard was... Gamer Score is the most important. To the point where people are not buying XBLIG becuase of it. The other main category is folk like me who couldn't care less about score or achievements so Indie Games are just fine for me. Folk who say 'I like play for achievements and don't care if I get any score' are far less common and more importantly you can get half way there today - many games have their own awardments... if its really just about getting those then you can do it already. I know you can't compare with your friends but if you are the sort of person who doesn't care about score then who cares what your friends have eh?

I dont think it would be worth the XNA team spending time and effort to go after 0 point achievements in terms of us making more sales... unless its a 1st step towards real gamerscore in which case its obviously worthwhile.

The ZMan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test seems like its measuring more about how people play MMORPGs and MUDs than anything else.

Yes, the Bartle test was designed with respect to multiplayer online games. But it does remain relevant for many single-player games. In fact, the very Wikipedia article you linked to mentions Gamerscore as an incentive for Achiever types, and most sources of Gamerscore are not coming from MMOs and MUDs :)

The ZMan:

many games have their own awardments... if its really just about getting those then you can do it already. I know you can't compare with your friends but if you are the sort of person who doesn't care about score then who cares what your friends have eh?

Yes, I realize indie developers can and do implement awards in their games. But if there can be a system in place to show off your shinies, why not? I mentioned badges in City of Heroes earlier. They don't have a system to display your badge count (aside from clicking on another character in-game and viewing their badges). But the players developed not one, but two independent websites to share your count with the world, as well as software to verify your claims. One player even gained fame within the playerbase simply for consistently having the highest badge count. As I write this, he's only missing 4 of the 696 badges it's possible for him to obtain. (and all of those 4 are based on real-world time, rather than game time)

Considering Microsoft has a system in place for the platform to have such badges visible to the world, I personally don't see a reason against granting 0-gamerscore achievements to the indie games. Particularly since the major argument against achievements in indie games is abusing gamerscore.

The ZMan:

I dont think it would be worth the XNA team spending time and effort to go after 0 point achievements in terms of us making more sales... unless its a 1st step towards real gamerscore in which case its obviously worthwhile.

And if they do give us 0-GS achievements, it's just a small extra step (as far as the framework goes) if they change their mind and allow GS in some form.



Actually, I take that back. I can see a reason not to allow 0-GS achievements: "Because the Xbox players expect to get gamerscore for their hard-earned achievements"

(Pretend "hard-earned" is dripping with sarcasm)

BShields:

Actually, I take that back. I can see a reason not to allow 0-GS achievements: "Because the Xbox players expect to get gamerscore for their hard-earned achievements"

(Pretend "hard-earned" is dripping with sarcasm)

The ZMan:

I dont think it would be worth the XNA team spending time and effort to go after 0 point achievements in terms of us making more sales... unless its a 1st step towards real gamerscore in which case its obviously worthwhile.

I'd be happy with the 0 point achievements as I'm sure it would still bring more people in. I'd be even more happy with actual points, even if it's less than XBLA games, which I'm sure it would have to be; maybe half what they get.

Jim Perry:

The ZMan:

I dont think it would be worth the XNA team spending time and effort to go after 0 point achievements in terms of us making more sales... unless its a 1st step towards real gamerscore in which case its obviously worthwhile.

I'd be happy with the 0 point achievements as I'm sure it would still bring more people in. I'd be even more happy with actual points, even if it's less than XBLA games, which I'm sure it would have to be; maybe half what they get.

BShields:

I personally don't see a reason against granting 0-gamerscore achievements to the indie games. Particularly since the major argument against achievements in indie games is abusing gamerscore.

My only objection is one of priority... there's tons of things I personally would prefer the XNA team work on ahead of something that I dont think would increase sales all that much. If they can give gamerscore too then my feel is that would increase sales...

The ZMan:

My only objection is one of priority... there's tons of things I personally would prefer the XNA team work on ahead of something that I dont think would increase sales all that much. If they can give gamerscore too then my feel is that would increase sales...

yea I would say 0 points = no buy. The reason for achievements is measurement, bragging rights and apparently self worth. A few years (actually quite a few) ago I was involved with a product where we did studies of Collectible Card game players, they frightened me. I see alot of the same mentality in the GS freaks. For some people it's really really important.

Want to know how important? Check this out www.trueachievements.com apparently they do not think all achievements are equal, and want to make certain their gamerscore was won in the most difficult way.

In my opinion, gamerscores/achievements will require some kind of Microsoft certification. It just won't work through the peer review system.

I can imagine a future world where XBLA and XBLIG merged, and you could go through some program where you would pay Microsoft to Tech Cert your game and allow gamer points / achievements, or you'd have the option of not paying, and not having those features. That's about as far as I think it could ever go. I also think the cost of TCR + gamerpoints would be substantial (probably in the five digit range, although I have no feeling for whether it'd be high or low five digits).

Dark Flow Studios:

So what you're saying is that you also think that 0 point achievements = no buy?

If X people will buy your game now, X+A will buy it with 0 pt achievements and X+B will buy it with gamer score.

I don't think A is big enough to justify the team putting the effort in but B is. Sure that's my opinion just talking to people at gamer events so there is probably a different demographic I've not met.

Yes they have code in place, but there's more to this than code... there's meetings with the xbox team to discuss this, possible process changes because the extensions have cert rules that we don't have as review rules. e.g. like rich presence, achievement icons and text are visible to EVERYONE and therefore there needs to be some process to review those specifically.

Jon & ZMan,

Apple does it with the app store, as part of the 30% they get, I would not see this as an impossibility. I would think that increased sales would allow them to pay for a review process and still make a profit. But then what do I know?

Big Daddio:

Apple does it with the app store, as part of the 30% they get

From some of the recent press on the apple review process and its randomness/inconsistency it would seem they don't spend very much of their 30% on reviewing the game.