I’m trying to develop a specialized controller peripheral to be compatible with XBox 360. I’m having a very difficult time figuring out who it is I should be contacting about the electronics required for compatibility. Who should I be contacting, and what is the best way to reach them?

On a related note, if plausible, I’d like this controller to also be HID compatible, so that it will be compatible with PCs and Macs. There seems to be some material floating around about some XNA related technology allowing PC and XBox compatibility in the same controller, but that could just be a Windows only trick (and from various posts here, it doesn’t seem to work out too well in practice). Any information about these topics?

You will need to be a registered and licensed developer. You can request an account manager to speak with about this topics. These forums are not really the place for that.

I recommend starting here:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/dev/regdev.htm

Previously discussed here http://forums.xna.com/thread/32543.aspx and here http://forums.xna.com/thread/32514.aspx

I appreciate the effort, but I’m afraid your advice falls short a little. Perhaps this is by design, but I still can’t figure out who exactly it is I am supposed to talk to, or how to contact them, even from the page you have given me. Could you post the relevant contact information for the required department, or at least show me on what web page it is located? There doesn’t seem to be anything about how to reach an account manager or how to become a registered developer either.

You'll likely have to register as a standard game developer with Microsoft first. There are rarely occassions where people want to make new types of peripherals without a custom game to use them. After you have registered as a game developer with them, you can use your contacts in Microsoft to discuss creating a custom controller peripheral. That's the most straightforward approach from the website. The alternative is to find a phone number for Microsoft (any that isn't a help line) and ask them how to get to the right department. It might take work getting routed around, but I'm sure eventually they'll get you the right person to start the process.

To build a USB device, you use any one of a number of USB microcontrollers. Cypress has a popular set, with lots of I/O for triggers and joysticks, for example. Then you implement the USB protocol or protocols that you need as a program for that microcontroller. You can start building your controller as a HID device, and when it's ready and works, you can add additional protocols (assuming you choose a microcontroller with sufficient memory/capacity).

PC and Xbox both understand the same 360 game controller type if you use the XInput library on the PC. If you want to make your game controller look like the 360, you should either talk to the people at Microsoft (like you say), or you can poke at the existing controller using a USB analyzer. The traffic on the USB wire is open, so the belief is you wouldn't be violating the DMCA or any similar statutes by doing so (but better check with a lawyer to make sure).

If you get no joy through the xbox developer programs then I would start with your local Microsoft office for your city. The local reps are much more approacable than going direct and will (well SHOULD) be able to contact you with the right people, or explain why that program is not open to everyone.

 

jwatte:

or you can poke at the existing controller using a USB analyzer. The traffic on the USB wire is open, so the belief is you wouldn't be violating the DMCA or any similar statutes by doing so (but better check with a lawyer to make sure).

If it were this easy or this legal then I suspect the market would be flooded with cheap 360 controllers by now.

I suspect the controllers have a digital sig in there somewhere which would be validated with a challenge response hard/impossible to determine by just sniffing traffic.

This product uses an interesting 'hack' to make things work on the 360 - you actually plug in a real 360 controller too 'authenticate' to xinput. http://www.consoleshop.com/product.php?productid=16497&partner=googlebase&bid=3

Brandon Bloom:

You will need to be a registered and licensed developer. You can request an account manager to speak with about this topics. These forums are not really the place for that.

I recommend starting here:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/dev/regdev.htm

Despite my best efforts, I’m afraid I can’t figure out how to reach an account manager. The websites don’t seem to post that sort of information, or about the process of becoming a developer for XBox. No one I’ve managed to speak with seems to know anything about this sort of account manager. I’ve checked the links pointed out to me, and not found what I’m looking for.

Calling Microsoft up on the phone seems to be of no help at all. I managed to get to developer support for Windows hoping that someone dealing with XNA might know something about the XBox side of things, but no joy there. There were options that wanted me to pay considerable money to speak to someone, but somehow I doubt they’d have the right answer to my question even if I paid.

I’ve not yet talked to my local Microsoft office (if there is one). Is there a web page where I would find the right number for such an office?

I’ve managed to sign up as a XBox Live Arcade developer, although I’m not sure if that really is any sort of progress at all. What to do from here would be helpful.

Thank you all for posting. I hope that further replies will get me closer to my goal.

The information on http://www.xbox.com/en-US/dev/regdev.htm is a little terse, but accurate to the best of my knowledge:

Building a full retail game for Xbox 360 or Windows

Work with your existing publisher or Microsoft account manager.

I don't work in this side of Microsoft, but back when I used to work for a game developer, our account manager at all the hardware manufacturers (Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo) was allocated through our publisher. If you don't already have a publishing deal, I suspect you will need to get one: this sort of info, along with access to devkits, registered developer support, etc, is part of the good stuff that comes along with getting a signed publishing deal.

So, in theory, if I was well funded, and wanted to start my own publishing house, how would I contact Microsoft?
I mean, other than going to the appropriate trade shows and snarfing business cards :-)

This is one thing that I've never completely agreed with.  Needing a publishing deal with a reputable publisher (and most likely a good game concept) is fine for those whose primary interest is creating a game, but what about the people who are somewhat more interested in the technology/hardware?  For instance, middleware developers.  I love writing games, but I love writing back-end software that drives games even more.  If I wanted to try out some "middleware ideas" on the Xbox, I'm pretty much out of luck unless I do it under the guise of a great new game concept and pitch it to a publisher.  Am I missing something here, or is someone like me who is more interested in middleware than actual games completely out of luck here?

I know companies like Ageia, Havok, etc. obviously create middleware tools without directly developing games, but I'm assuming the only reason they get access to the dev kit hardware and SDK is because they are already established in the PC gaming world.

ShawMishrak:

I'm assuming the only reason they get access to the dev kit hardware and SDK is because they are already established in the PC gaming world.

You just answered your own question.

If you want to experiment creating middleware, you can do so on Windows. Assuming your project is interesting enough for someone to notice, it's really not that big of a leap technology-wise to the Xbox 360.

It wasn't so much a question as a general statement of discontent.  I know this probably won't ever change in the console world, but it still bothers me.  I hate being told, "all that matters is who you know and how much money you have."

ShawMishrak:

If I wanted to try out some "middleware ideas" on the Xbox, I'm pretty much out of luck unless I do it under the guise of a great new game concept and pitch it to a publisher.  Am I missing something here, or is someone like me who is more interested in middleware than actual games completely out of luck here?

The fact is, Xbox, like all consoles, is a closed platform. The XNA Framework is gradually altering that, but if you want to do things outside the scope of what the XNA Framework enables (for instance developing your own hardware, or writing native C++ code) then the platform remains closed.

There are many reasons for console platforms to be closed, but the main one is money. Console hardware is sold at a loss, and then that loss is recouped through the profits on game sales. When the hardware is sold at a loss, it would clearly not be a good business to enable people using it for things other than running those blockbuster games! The money is in the games, so the entire business is focused around making those games. Giving devkits to people who are not making a blockbuster game would cost money and cause extra support work for no profit.

(at this point the astute reader might be able to figure out why it does make business sense for the XNA Framework to enable people using hardware that was sold at a loss for non game playing purposes, but only after they pay an extra fee...)

The thing is, console manufacturers don't generally have the time to filter through all the billions of guys out there who have ideas to pitch. That isn't their area of expertise. Instead, they delegate these decisions to the publishers. If a publisher comes along and says "I think this game will make money, so I want to fund its development", then they get devkits and support. It's up to the publisher to listen to the concept pitches, decide which ones are worth investing in, and reject the ones that seem unlikely to be successful. So yes, this is a closed, invatation only club, but less so than it would be if it was only Microsoft and Sony making these decisions. At least the way things work today, if EA don't like your idea you could try Activision, THQ, etc.

Even if your project is not directly a game, the same rules apply. To get support for native console development, you need to convince a publisher that your work will directly contribute to big $$$ via a blockbuster game title, at which point that publisher will ask the console manufacturer to give you devkits and support. There are many ways to convince them of that, but by far the most common is to implement something on Windows, prove that your tech works well and is useful, and get it to the point where games are wanting to use it. The moment EA phone up saying "we'd like to use this physics library in our next title: can we get some devkits for the guys who make it?" it's pretty much a no brainer that they'll get what they need.

Or if you really don't like these rules and want to get on Xbox today, use the XNA Framework. We offer a totally different playing field, which is open to everyone: no special permission or industry contacts required. You can't do everything in our universe (for instance custom hardware development is out), but you can do a lot...

Shawn Hargreaves:

If you don't already have a publishing deal, I suspect you will need to get one: this sort of info, along with access to devkits, registered developer support, etc, is part of the good stuff that comes along with getting a signed publishing deal.

Well, publishing hardly has anything to do with hardware development. Hardware isn’t “published”; it’s manufactured. The equivalent here would be going to MadCatz or Pelican; even if I were willing to work with these companies (and I’m not), if they were able to get 360 support into their products, they would already have done so without my help. More to the point, they are not interested in manufacturing anything worth my time, which is why Microsoft justly kicked these folks to the curb. And so obviously, trying to approach Microsoft under their banner would be shooting myself in the foot. That’s why I’m trying to find the best way in on my own; so I can make the quality I’d like to without business people trying to cheapen things.

jwatte:

So, in theory, if I was well funded, and wanted to start my own publishing house, how would I contact Microsoft?
I mean, other than going to the appropriate trade shows and snarfing business cards :-)

Yes, exactly; this is what it essentially boils down to. Who do you talk to when you don’t know who to talk to?

ShawMishrak:

This is one thing that I've never completely agreed with. Needing a publishing deal with a reputable publisher (and most likely a good game concept) is fine for those whose primary interest is creating a game, but what about the people who are somewhat more interested in the technology/hardware? For instance, middleware developers. I love writing games, but I love writing back-end software that drives games even more. If I wanted to try out some "middleware ideas" on the Xbox, I'm pretty much out of luck unless I do it under the guise of a great new game concept and pitch it to a publisher. Am I missing something here, or is someone like me who is more interested in middleware than actual games completely out of luck here?

I know companies like Ageia, Havok, etc. obviously create middleware tools without directly developing games, but I'm assuming the only reason they get access to the dev kit hardware and SDK is because they are already established in the PC gaming world.

You’ve probably seen this before, since you asked this question, but (in theory) this is where you start looking into middleware. I started my initial thrust into the controller electronics problem by mailing the middleware people; assuming that, since all controller electronics has to conform to the same standard, there would either be middleware for various supported controller chipsets, or a single standard chipset which would probably fall under the purview of the middleware people. Sadly, this didn’t yield any results when I last tried.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/dev/tools.htm

One of the useful things about the Linux PS2 kit was that it would let you play around with the sort of middleware stuff you’d be interested in. Shame XBox wouldn’t do something similar.


Let’s hope someone who can resolve this issue to my satisfaction will come by shortly.

Techhunter:

Well, publishing hardly has anything to do with hardware development. Hardware isn’t “published”; it’s manufactured. The equivalent here would be going to MadCatz or Pelican; even if I were willing to work with these companies (and I’m not), if they were able to get 360 support into their products, they would already have done so without my help. More to the point, they are not interested in manufacturing anything worth my time, which is why Microsoft justly kicked these folks to the curb. And so obviously, trying to approach Microsoft under their banner would be shooting myself in the foot. That’s why I’m trying to find the best way in on my own; so I can make the quality I’d like to without business people trying to cheapen things.

If you are making custom controller peripherals, surely you have a game idea at least to go with it. Why would you need custom controller functionality otherwise? There are some third party controllers on the market, but they are limited. The main factor is that Microsoft is extremely picky with its wireless technology. But other companies do make Xbox 360 accessories. Keep in mind though that if Microsoft is being picky and rejecting major hardware manufacturers like MadCatz or Pelican, odds are pretty good that they are going to reject an idea from someone who doesn't have the sales figures of those companies.

Let’s hope someone who can resolve this issue to my satisfaction will come by shortly.

You've gotten the best answers you will get out of a forum. You will just have to keep at it with contacting Microsoft or visiting any local branches if they exist in your area. Most (all?) Microsoft employees that visit here (like Shawn) don't work on the hardware side of things. If you are still insistant on making your own custom hardware with no specific game, you are just going to have to work with Microsoft or another Xbox 360 accessory manufacturer to get your product licensed and made.

Call up companies that have obviously done this, such as for Guitar Hero or that Mech controller, and ask for their advice.
Take a networking approach. Sign up for GDC -- there will be people there who know, for sure.
I would be surprised if you couldn't at least get an e-mail address to someone in the hardware division out of a trip to the GDC.


Btw: to those saying "why would anyone want to build something when Microsoft is already doing so?" I would counter that, in the long term, an open ecosystem survives, whereas a monoculture doesn't. There may be a niche market of $150 joysticks for the Xbox. Neither Microsoft nor MadCatz are going to go after that market on their own, but someone else might. I think the main thing is that you need to demonstrate value to the platform.

jwatte:

Btw: to those saying "why would anyone want to build something when Microsoft is already doing so?"

Having just reread all of the posts here, I don't see that statement anywhere, although my eyesight isn't what it once was ;)

 

Techhunter:

Despite my best efforts, I’m afraid I can’t figure out how to reach an account manager. .......I’ve not yet talked to my local Microsoft office (if there is one). Is there a web page where I would find the right number for such an office?

Start here http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/usaoffices/default.mspx - this will give you the MS regions. Then the trick would be to find your developer evanglist... i cant find a website for this but the INETA website can lead you to a contact for yout local .Net user group and the .Net user groups almost always know who their DE is.

Once you have the DE then they should be able to do the legwork to find you the contacts or at least tell you if MS if just plain not interested.

 

David Hunt:

Having just reread all of the posts here, I don't see that statement anywhere, although my eyesight isn't what it once was ;)

Yes, I'm extrapolating a little bit, starting off with Nick Gravelyn's suggestion that a new controller HAS to have a game idea with it to be worthwile. My point is that a single controller design (the 360 gamepad) may be good enough for most people, but there likely still exists a niche market for different implementations of the same scheme. Three I can think of right off the bat:

1) Kid-sized controller with the same functionality as the 360 wireless controller.

2) Upscale implementation of the 360 wireless controller feature set, with more expensive actuators, a somewhat different layout, etc.

3) A controller that is more tuned towards flight games (that already exist).

That's a horse of another color and I agree completely.

 

The ZMan [MVP/Moderator]:

Techhunter:

Despite my best efforts, I’m afraid I can’t figure out how to reach an account manager. .......I’ve not yet talked to my local Microsoft office (if there is one). Is there a web page where I would find the right number for such an office?

Start here http://www.microsoft.com/about/companyinformation/usaoffices/default.mspx - this will give you the MS regions. Then the trick would be to find your developer evanglist... i cant find a website for this but the INETA website can lead you to a contact for yout local .Net user group and the .Net user groups almost always know who their DE is.

Once you have the DE then they should be able to do the legwork to find you the contacts or at least tell you if MS if just plain not interested.

 

I’ve managed to find my local Developer Evangelist; turns out he has a blog. I’ve figured out how to reach him by phone and e-mail, and have sent him an e-mail, but got his voicemail when I called; I’ll try again tomorrow.

The search terms I used on Google to find his blog:
massachusetts microsoft "developer evangelist"

I concur with the idea that you don't need a game idea, to have controller HW ideas.

I've already seen a product for Xbox Live Arcade fans, a coin-op style joystick console to plug into your xbox.  It has authentic buttons and joystick.

I've got a friend who loves his old SpaceBall controller, which is sadly, a serial device.  It's hard enough getting drivers for XP for it.  If that product were USB, and xbox compatible, he'd be happy.

If you're looking to do a HW prototype, google up hardware mods and hacks for the xbox 360.  There's sites dedicated to that. 

If you're looking to productize your idea, you need to approach a HW company like MadCatz, Pelican, or Logitech (Logitech never sucks).  At the minimum, attend a technical trade show where folks like this are, so you can find them at their booth.  Many booths are manned by both engineers and marketing folks.  They can help.

 

Janx:

I concur with the idea that you don't need a game idea, to have controller HW ideas.

I've already seen a product for Xbox Live Arcade fans, a coin-op style joystick console to plug into your xbox.  It has authentic buttons and joystick.

I've got a friend who loves his old SpaceBall controller, which is sadly, a serial device.  It's hard enough getting drivers for XP for it.  If that product were USB, and xbox compatible, he'd be happy.

If you're looking to do a HW prototype, google up hardware mods and hacks for the xbox 360.  There's sites dedicated to that. 

If you're looking to productize your idea, you need to approach a HW company like MadCatz, Pelican, or Logitech (Logitech never sucks).  At the minimum, attend a technical trade show where folks like this are, so you can find them at their booth.  Many booths are manned by both engineers and marketing folks.  They can help.

 

I am familiar with the arcade sticks you are talking about. They are almost always gamepad hacks or PIC chip emulations of the real electronics hardware. Not the best for engineering compatibility. Have your friend check his stick to find out whether or not it is a gamepad or PIC chip hack; he may end up disappointed. It’s a shame, really; there are fantastic hand-crafted arcade sticks out there. Real pieces of art that end up as electronics hacks; not because of lack of craftsmanship or technical know-how, but because the console makers won’t listen. I’d like to do something about that, but I’ve got my own project to worry about.