BigWeather:

So, will shipping additional data content (subject to the review process for appropriateness, of course) into an existing game (so that they go into the same directory) be possible?

We don't currently support downloadable content, so you would have to just ship a new version of your game to include these extra levels.

(as always, please give us Connect feedback if downloadable content is important to you)

Shawn Hargreaves:

BigWeather:

So, will shipping additional data content (subject to the review process for appropriateness, of course) into an existing game (so that they go into the same directory) be possible?

We don't currently support downloadable content, so you would have to just ship a new version of your game to include these extra levels.

(as always, please give us Connect feedback if downloadable content is important to you)

Sounds good, I'll submit feedback.

So long as I'm not charging for content I don't mind just updating the existing game with additional data files embedded.  It's really only when charging for it that the model gets icky and the need for downloadable content stands out.

Also, just so it wasn't lost -- updating a game will preserve existing user data (particularly saved games), right?  Of course the burden of converting older, incompatible user data so that it runs on the new version of the game (if necessary) will fall on the individual developer.

Thanks again for the incredible support (in terms of relevant answers and speed).

Shawn Hargreaves:

Once you distribute your game to Xbox Marketplace, though, it can only connect to other versions that were downloaded from Marketplace. It will no longer be able to connect to other Xboxes that are running a non-published version of the game through the Creators Club launcher, or to Windows versions of your game.

Any hints of when/if this will be possible? I had developed a system for distributed content that I was hoping to use where my users could snag a Windows program with the same GUID, create content, and then enable a special menu option in the Xbox version for transfering this data to the Xbox (which could then be distributed to other people's Xbox versions via LIVE).

Here's the connect page for those who wish to voice their opinion and vote on the matter: Link. I personally wanted to make a game with user-driven content, but that feature will apparently have to sit on the back-burner for now.

Nick Gravelyn:

Shawn Hargreaves:

Once you distribute your game to Xbox Marketplace, though, it can only connect to other versions that were downloaded from Marketplace. It will no longer be able to connect to other Xboxes that are running a non-published version of the game through the Creators Club launcher, or to Windows versions of your game.

Any hints of when/if this will be possible?

I'm afraid I have no clue.

The barriers to this are mostly security/policy/business issues rather than purely technical (if we didn't care about security and having non-spoofable game identity, we could easily just run everything under the same title ID and have done with it), and it's hard to estimate if/when that sort of issue could be solved.

To be honest I think downloadable content is more feasible in the short term: there's less policy issues around making that work, and more just a question of figuring out how to do it and finding the time to implement it.

We're certainly very interested in feedback around this area. The more specific you can be about what you'd like to enable, the better, as the better we can understand what people are wanting to do, the more likely we might be able to find some way to enable that without breaking our security requirements.

I'm actually working on a prototype of my entire system for distributed content and once I complete that, I'll probably add a link to it in the Connect issue so you guys can see exactly what I'm trying to achieve. I think being able to connect to Windows for things like user-driven content could be a HUGELY successful idea for the market. It enhances the games by adding longevity and makes the consumer more likely to purchase a product knowing they are able to add more to it later.

Nick Gravelyn:

Shawn Hargreaves:

Once you distribute your game to Xbox Marketplace, though, it can only connect to other versions that were downloaded from Marketplace. It will no longer be able to connect to other Xboxes that are running a non-published version of the game through the Creators Club launcher, or to Windows versions of your game.

Any hints of when/if this will be possible? I had developed a system for distributed content that I was hoping to use where my users could snag a Windows program with the same GUID, create content, and then enable a special menu option in the Xbox version for transfering this data to the Xbox (which could then be distributed to other people's Xbox versions via LIVE).

Here's the connect page for those who wish to voice their opinion and vote on the matter: Link. I personally wanted to make a game with user-driven content, but that feature will apparently have to sit on the back-burner for now.

I've gone down this thought path too -- the idea of giving the users the ability to create content on the PC via editors and deploy them to an existing game would be really neat. 

Sure, you could allow them to create content on the 360 but then it is a dead-end -- the user can't share the work with anyone else.  Though perhaps when playing with others you could synch up content -- so that content created by user A would spread to user B when they play together.  Still it's clumsy and you couldn't just go to user A's site, download the content, then "publish" it -- you'd have to catch them online and play with them to get their content to creep on over.  If that makes sense. =)

Maybe if we had downloadable content and allowed a person to publish content for a game published by another person it'd work out.

The tricky part there is that if the DLC stunk (to use my example, suppose a WW2 battle pack that got the units all wrong, or what have you) you'd want to make sure the author of the content got ding'd and not the author of the game the content was provided for.

Oh, and it'd require that the content author have CC -- so maybe it's not a great idea due to that limitation.

BigWeather:

I've gone down this thought path too -- the idea of giving the users the ability to create content on the PC via editors and deploy them to an existing game would be really neat. 

Sure, you could allow them to create content on the 360 but then it is a dead-end -- the user can't share the work with anyone else.  Though perhaps when playing with others you could synch up content -- so that content created by user A would spread to user B when they play together.  Still it's clumsy and you couldn't just go to user A's site, download the content, then "publish" it -- you'd have to catch them online and play with them to get their content to creep on over.  If that makes sense. =)

That's exactly how Counter-Strike handles it. Sure you can also download the mod (which would be nice for us to be able to do as well), but you can also get mods simply by connecting to a host server that is running that mod and having it transfer over. Done correctly this can be a very seamless way to transfer content around.

The tricky part there is that if the DLC stunk (to use my example, suppose a WW2 battle pack that got the units all wrong, or what have you) you'd want to make sure the author of the content got ding'd and not the author of the game the content was provided for.

Such is the risk with mods. I'm merely suggesting small changes or things. Think about Little Big Planet. It would be cool if we could make a game where the user could make levels like that. My system for propagating created content would work perfectly if I build the editor into the Xbox version (which I'll have to look into) so it's already not out of the question.

Oh, and it'd require that the content author have CC -- so maybe it's not a great idea due to that limitation.

Not necessarily. If they download the published Xbox version, that has LIVE access without the CC subscription. Then the PC counter-part can use System Link to connect which also doesn't require the CC subscription. Then players can make content on their PC and transfer it down to their Xbox for personal use. If they ever host a match/game on their box, the content gets propagated to all the other clients who can then host the game and spread the content further.

It's an interesting concept and one I'd definitely like to be able to try. For now I guess I'll have to go with making an Xbox editor and letting the boxes propagate the content that way.

Nick Gravelyn:

I'm actually working on a prototype of my entire system for distributed content and once I complete that, I'll probably add a link to it in the Connect issue so you guys can see exactly what I'm trying to achieve. I think being able to connect to Windows for things like user-driven content could be a HUGELY successful idea for the market. It enhances the games by adding longevity and makes the consumer more likely to purchase a product knowing they are able to add more to it later.

The problem with allowing content to come from outside the publishing pipeline is that it gives you a very obvious way to bypass the review system. Like Shawn, I'm not involved in the publishing pipeline development, but I would imagine any downloadable content would have to go through review just like any complete game would. That pretty much rules out the ability to get it from a user's PC.

 

Stephen Styrchak:

Nick Gravelyn:

I'm actually working on a prototype of my entire system for distributed content and once I complete that, I'll probably add a link to it in the Connect issue so you guys can see exactly what I'm trying to achieve. I think being able to connect to Windows for things like user-driven content could be a HUGELY successful idea for the market. It enhances the games by adding longevity and makes the consumer more likely to purchase a product knowing they are able to add more to it later.

The problem with allowing content to come from outside the publishing pipeline is that it gives you a very obvious way to bypass the review system. Like Shawn, I'm not involved in the publishing pipeline development, but I would imagine any downloadable content would have to go through review just like any complete game would. That pretty much rules out the ability to get it from a user's PC.

 

Where that gets interesting is:

A published game that has a built-in editor and shares content with other users that have downloaded the published game (via sending the content over XBL).  Theoretically someone could (to borrow from my wargame example) create a battle between the Rebellion and the Empire and have generals like Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader -- and share those with other users if there were some kind of content sharing.  Clearly the content would violate the no copyright infringement condition that would weed out CC-submitted peer-reviewed content but as it is post-publish and user (non-CC user, probably)-created it would slip through.

Stephen Styrchak:

Nick Gravelyn:

I'm actually working on a prototype of my entire system for distributed content and once I complete that, I'll probably add a link to it in the Connect issue so you guys can see exactly what I'm trying to achieve. I think being able to connect to Windows for things like user-driven content could be a HUGELY successful idea for the market. It enhances the games by adding longevity and makes the consumer more likely to purchase a product knowing they are able to add more to it later.

The problem with allowing content to come from outside the publishing pipeline is that it gives you a very obvious way to bypass the review system. Like Shawn, I'm not involved in the publishing pipeline development, but I would imagine any downloadable content would have to go through review just like any complete game would. That pretty much rules out the ability to get it from a user's PC.

That is a pretty good point. Logically you could review the downloadable system. For instance if my game's editor only allows you to create valid levels for the game, has no way to input new images or text (you have to use assets my game includes), then you could restrict what they get to use. But I can see that reviewing this system would require lots of code review as well so it's rather out of the realm of possibility.

However I'm going to see if implementing an Xbox-side editor is going to violate any EULAs and, if not, go that route as it seems to be the simplest and most available solution to user-created content.

Nick Gravelyn:

That is a pretty good point. Logically you could review the downloadable system. For instance if my game's editor only allows you to create valid levels for the game, has no way to input new images or text (you have to use assets my game includes), then you could restrict what they get to use. But I can see that reviewing this system would require lots of code review as well so it's rather out of the realm of possibility.

However I'm going to see if implementing an Xbox-side editor is going to violate any EULAs and, if not, go that route as it seems to be the simplest and most available solution to user-created content.

If I remember correctly, I believe that this scenario was brought up during the keynote after-discussion. While clearly people could brake the review guidelines, I think that it was said to be allowable to pass created content in P2P fashion since people will know where the content is coming from directly.

Things that should be included

1. SystemLink to PCs
2. Downloadable Content
3. A place on Live where you can store database information, gamescores, maps and so on
4. The ablity to create a game that shares the GUID which is completely different
   Ok let my state that correctly: If multiplatform would work then being ablity to create 2 versions of the same game, one for PC and 360 the game would share features but do different things. Important if Zune ever becomes cross networked, being I still want to use the Zune as a controller for the 360 over WLAN.

Hey is it possible to buy a CC Sub that covers multiple Xboxs?

gsolid:

SystemLink to PCs

I agree and this will probably happen in the future.

Downloadable Content

I also agree. From what was said above it seems like this is something they want to do as well so it will probably happen in the future. Plus this system isn't even done yet so consider there a possibility that whenever the full service launches some of these might make it in.

A place on Live where you can store database information, gamescores, maps and so on

That's not going to happen. With the nature of the system, storing arbitrary information for anyone who wants it is just asking to see Microsoft wind up with terabytes of wasted database space. I honestly don't think any of that is going to happen.

The ablity to create a game that shares the GUID which is completely different

Ok let my state that correctly: If multiplatform would work then being ablity to create 2 versions of the same game, one for PC and 360 the game would share features but do different things. Important if Zune ever becomes cross networked, being I still want to use the Zune as a controller for the 360 over WLAN.

That would be kinda nifty, sure.

Hey is it possible to buy a CC Sub that covers multiple Xboxs?

Your CC sub sticks with your gamertag so wherever you move that you can redownload the XNA Framework and use it on that box. However your gamertag cannot be online on two boxes so it's a single box thing. So to answer your question, no. You will have to have a separate gamertag, CC sub, and Gold subscription per Xbox.

Hey Mitch,

I just wanted to give my feedback on the demo/trial accounts.

Personally, give us the API's to do what we want. Some games are better having a time-based limit, while others are better having a game limit. Honestly, that's something a developer will have to decide.

Also, I extremely recommend that you guys work on possibly releasing a suggested TCR's. Not required though, but things that will really make XNA games shine. Best practices and what-not.

On that note though, I really hope that the experience and games don't become "homogenous". While on XBLA you can clearly get that sense that it's been made for the service, it gets that feeling that everything is too rigid. On the PSN nothing is really required, and that freedom and originality shows through more than on XBLA. That is what I'm hoping XNA becomes for the 360 so we have the best of both worlds!

Another potentially huge issue with Xbox Live Community Games in general is the legality of the development tools in regards to writing non-free (commercial) games.  Visual C# Express seems to allow commercial use, but as far as I know Visual Studio Standard/Professional obtained from MSDN Academic Alliance or Dreamspark does not.  The same is true for XSI Mod Tool.  I can definitely see potential issues here where people use the Dreamspark/MSDNAA versions of Visual Studio to code their game, and XSI Mod Tool for content creation; then submit their game as a commercial title.

Are there any plans to make sure the community is aware of these issues?

Other things I like in XNA

1. Achievements Point
   Not normal one I understand the agruement with that and agree but seperate achievement system just for xna
2. As for a database, don't have to be on live, just somewhere you could store Leaderboard or what ever like that.
   I understand that the game can't collect personal information, I read that somewhere
3. The ability to read/write from a USB device to upload new content to a game (XML) that way you could still have an editor on the PC
4. Screen Shots, ok this is just a general request for screen shots on Xbox Live but it will be important with these games so ou know what your getting

Nick Gravelyn:

I'm actually working on a prototype of my entire system for distributed content and once I complete that, I'll probably add a link to it in the Connect issue so you guys can see exactly what I'm trying to achieve. I think being able to connect to Windows for things like user-driven content could be a HUGELY successful idea for the market. It enhances the games by adding longevity and makes the consumer more likely to purchase a product knowing they are able to add more to it later.

The ability to share user generated content is slightly different than the "traditional" downloadable content that usually includes items created by the developer.

Both are scenarios we're investigating for the future.

 

You have to be a member of the Creators Club to deploy to your 360.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Xbox LIVE connection is not required to play XNA downloaded games. I didn't accept the "this game requires an Xbox LIVE connection" message when I played the JelliCar game and it run without problems.

Penhalion Wolfe:

A couple of questions.

1. Will we be able to put out demo and trial versions of games we want people to pay for?

I plan on creating commercial quality games and would like to make a little money off them if people like them. Obviously this means that releasing the full game for free is kind of defeating that purpose.

2. How will the submission process differ for such games?

That's pretty much it. I plan to do some free and a few charge for games if I have the time. I'm one of those people that work full time in the corporate games arena and get the odd "Your stifling my creativity" moments that XNA seems made to relieve :) 

I have another question to add to the quoted ones. Currently I'm not interested on developing a commercial game, but if I wanted that, I wanted also to protect my content to be freely downloadable. So, if I need to share my game content as people could download from Xbox LIVE, people can subscribe the Creators Club to download my game, and all others, by "only" paying the Creators Club subscription. So, the business model needs to let us share our commercial games with some restrictions, like trial demos have. I think it can't be done if reviewers can download the full .ccgame version.

zook83:

Penhalion Wolfe:

A couple of questions.

1. Will we be able to put out demo and trial versions of games we want people to pay for?

I plan on creating commercial quality games and would like to make a little money off them if people like them. Obviously this means that releasing the full game for free is kind of defeating that purpose.

2. How will the submission process differ for such games?

That's pretty much it. I plan to do some free and a few charge for games if I have the time. I'm one of those people that work full time in the corporate games arena and get the odd "Your stifling my creativity" moments that XNA seems made to relieve :) 

I have another question to add to the quoted ones. Currently I'm not interested on developing a commercial game, but if I wanted that, I wanted also to protect my content to be freely downloadable. So, if I need to share my game content as people could download from Xbox LIVE, people can subscribe the Creators Club to download my game, and all others, by "only" paying the Creators Club subscription. So, the business model needs to let us share our commercial games with some restrictions, like trial demos have. I think it can't be done if reviewers can download the full .ccgame version.

I'd hope they put something in place where the CC folks' downloaded games for review purposes are time-limited or somesuch.  Not unlike downloaded movies from the VM are only available for a limited time.

zook83:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Xbox LIVE connection is not required to play XNA downloaded games. I didn't accept the "this game requires an Xbox LIVE connection" message when I played the JelliCar game and it run without problems.

I got an error message when I tried to launch the XNA sample games without an internet/Live connection.

Can we compile a suggestion checklist for anyone to review before submitting their game and after they get rejected to help people think of little polishing features that should be present in most game. This list plus peer feedback will help finish a game.

Example:

Make sure your game

• Has a main menu?
• Allows to quit to main menu?
• Allows to quit to back dashboard?
• Can you pause the game?
• Shows the control configuration anywhere in the game?
• Has loading screens?

Also extra polish section when it applies

• Has reconfigurable keys?
• Has a small intro or story to put the player in context?

Shawn Hargreaves:

Edison S. Prata Jr:

Will Xbox LIVE Community accept things like machinima and demos(the demoscene kind of demo) made with XNA? or it will be only for games.

We don't care...There is absolutely no portfolio management, which means we will never reject a game because of subjective judgements such as "I don't think it's fun", or "I don't think it's any good", or even "huh, I'm not sure this even counts as a game at all".

I'm not sure if I like this idea. The majority of users downloading these games are going to expect them to be games. Judgements on whether or not the game is fun could probably be discarded, but when it gets to the point of someone downloading the game "SuperLight" only to find that it's a demo with a cube bouncing around the screen with different lighting effects, users are going to be turned off.

I think "Community Games" should actually be games, and any physics demos, etc. should remain in the PC world where they can be analyzed better anyway.

I'm extremely excited about all of this, and it would be a shame if it failed because all the quality games were diluted by simple demonstrations which could more easily be tested on PCs anyway.

Alternatively I would suggest having a special category for such demos.

SomeRhino:

I'm not sure if I like this idea. The majority of users downloading these games are going to expect them to be games. Judgements on whether or not the game is fun could probably be discarded, but when it gets to the point of someone downloading the game "SuperLight" only to find that it's a demo with a cube bouncing around the screen with different lighting effects, users are going to be turned off.

That's what we were discussing above. "SuperLight" here would definitely not pass in my review. While it's not our job to say whether a game is fun, we (as peer reviewers) can still reject titles because they don't meet the definition of a complete game. That's part of the point of the review in my mind. As a collective Creator's Club, we can easily stop tech demos and unfinished products from hitting the Community Games section. This is important because developers who have finished products want the general gaming population to not have a negative view of the Community Games section. And repeatedly finding tech demos and unfinished games would do just that. Hence why it is our (as Creator's Club members) duty to make sure we keep tech demos and unfinished games from making it through the peer review system.

I think "Community Games" should actually be games, and any physics demos, etc. should remain in the PC world where they can be analyzed better anyway.

Agreed. Or release a .ccgame to any Creator's Club members to install on their Xbox. There's no reason to have a widespread distribution for a tech demo.

Alternatively I would suggest having a special category for such demos.

I would just say don't bother. The Community Games section should be for finished products only. Tech demos should stay on the PC or through other distribution means to Creator's Club members to play on Xbox (distributing a .ccgame works).